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A serious question for the pro-Frank crowd

GarnetBeamer

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Dec 7, 2020
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I'd prefer this to not get overrun with discussions of Frank's performance.

There are a few posters who firmly believe Frank has earned the chance to turn the team around. So I have 2 questions I'd just like to get simple answers on, without bashing anyone's response:
1. What constitutes turning the team around?
2. How many more seasons does he deserves to accomplish it?

I'd prefer to keep the anti-Frank discussion to the many other threads if possible. I'm sure it's not.
 

viennacocks

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Dec 19, 2011
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I'd prefer this to not get overrun with discussions of Frank's performance.

There are a few posters who firmly believe Frank has earned the chance to turn the team around. So I have 2 questions I'd just like to get simple answers on, without bashing anyone's response:
1. What constitutes turning the team around?
2. How many more seasons does he deserves to accomplish it?

I'd prefer to keep the anti-Frank discussion to the many other threads if possible. I'm sure it's not.
I asked similar questions of posters but never received a response. It appears these are questions pro-Martin folks are unwilling to answer.
 
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jackrabbit slim

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Mar 30, 2008
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Since he will be here at least one more season, then the next one needs to be his last. Frank. Cannot. Recruit. Nothing will change that.
 
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GarnetBeamer

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Dec 7, 2020
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I asked similar questions of posters but never received a response. It appears these are questions pro-Martin folks are unwilling to answer.
Same here.

I was hoping by starting an independent thread with a plea not to jump on bash anyone's answers, it might induce an answer.

I don't intend to engage anyone to disagree with their response. I'm just genuinely curious to know b/c several posters have repeatedly said they believe he has earned the chance to turn things around. I just want to know what that means to them.
 
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Jon Snow

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Dec 17, 2012
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I'm not pro- or anti-Martin. I do, however, think a change should have been made, based on the direction of the program the past 4 years, recruiting trends, etc.

However, to address the questions from the OP:

2. I think this question should be answered first. Considering HOW ugly things are around the program right now, Frank should only get one, final chance. If he can't "turn it around" this season, we need to be looking for a new coach in 10 months.

1. As to what "turn it around" should mean: Given the lack of talent in the program, I'd feel goofy asking for an NCAA appearance. So, from a 'results" standpoint, I'd say Frank should be expected to finish near the middle of the SEC pack, but probably just below it...maybe 8th or 9th, with close to a .500 in-conference record. Just as importantly, Frank needs his team to perform well out of conference. If he manages something like 10-3 OOC (and I don't mean 10 wins against D2 and bottom of the barrel teams...at least somewhat respectable wins) and maybe 8-10 in conference, that would be 18-13. Maybe a win or two in the SEC-T could get an NIT invite.

Aside from in-game results, I'd also expect to see immediate recruiting results. I don't know who Frank is recruiting for the 2022 class, but unless I saw a serious, serious upgrade in his commitments for that class, I'd send him packing, pretty much regardless of wins/losses.
 

Silver_Coconut

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Feb 12, 2020
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I want to see competitiveness. I want to see desire. I want to see a well executed offense, good free throw shooting, and good shot selection. I want to see good team defense.

None of which we saw this year.

Folks get hung up on record and timelines. I want to see a decent product on the floor that doesnt lose by 20-30 on a regular basis. I can be proud of 0-30 if the basketball is good. I can be ashamed of 25-3, just as well. I look for nuance and not records. Last year is the first year since 2011 that I have been disappointed in the team.
 

Gamecockben1979

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Jun 5, 2017
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I'd prefer this to not get overrun with discussions of Frank's performance.

There are a few posters who firmly believe Frank has earned the chance to turn the team around. So I have 2 questions I'd just like to get simple answers on, without bashing anyone's response:
1. What constitutes turning the team around?
2. How many more seasons does he deserves to accomplish it?

I'd prefer to keep the anti-Frank discussion to the many other threads if possible. I'm sure it's not.

I am pro Martin. I also don’t care what others think. It’s nice when they agree. I don’t take it personal when they don’t. This place is nothing but a free exchange of ideas. I don’t mind blasting the person that gets ugly or personal when needed.

To me Frank got us to a final four, has had us competitive in the SEC. We have made the NCAA Tournament. We made a couple of NITs. We typically improve as the season progresses Pushing the guy out the door in a year where we paused basketball entirely for over a month, cancelled a lot of games and where our head coach personally had to deal with Covid not once but twice would have been a really bad look for our school. The fire Frank crowd don’t care about that. Realistically we would have had a hard time getting a quality coach with the feeling that we fired or forced out a coach under that circumstances.

Clearly Frank has been given the message he must make changes. He knows he needs to win now. He’s hitting the transfer portal harder than ever. Even as a Frank defender, he should have been doing this earlier.

To answer your question:
1. At least an NIT birth next year, winning somewhere in the neighborhood of 18-20 games. Realistically most years we win this many games we still do not make the NCAA tournament, but it would be real improvement.

2. Frank is in a sink or swim year. Everyone knows it. Contract got restructured and he’s getting a ton of transfers. Everyone knows that if he wins 12 or less games next season, it’s his last. If he’s in the 13-17 win mark, it’s iffy. If he gets 18 or more wins, then you’re firing just to make a change.
 

psmith5532

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Sep 14, 2008
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I think the majority of the fans don't care whether Frank is coach or not...just want to put a winning product on the floor. I would prefer it to be Frank as coach but wouldn't lose any sleep if it's not. I think he's got 2 years to get into the NCAA. I think that's when the buyout disappears.
 
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Balwiles

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Nov 20, 2020
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1) NCAA Tournament
2) One

Frank is a good basketball coach and the Final Four run was magical. However, he's been his own worst enemy in terms of recruiting and pushing practice into the early part in each season - losing winnable games which cost us post season trips. In addition, his overall brand of basketball is low on the watchability scale and fans in the upper deck shouldn't have to cover their kid's ears each game.

10 years is a good run. Time to mix it up.
 

GarnetBeamer

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Dec 7, 2020
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I am pro Martin. I also don’t care what others think. It’s nice when they agree. I don’t take it personal when they don’t. This place is nothing but a free exchange of ideas. I don’t mind blasting the person that gets ugly or personal when needed.

To me Frank got us to a final four, has had us competitive in the SEC. We have made the NCAA Tournament. We made a couple of NITs. We typically improve as the season progresses Pushing the guy out the door in a year where we paused basketball entirely for over a month, cancelled a lot of games and where our head coach personally had to deal with Covid not once but twice would have been a really bad look for our school. The fire Frank crowd don’t care about that. Realistically we would have had a hard time getting a quality coach with the feeling that we fired or forced out a coach under that circumstances.

Clearly Frank has been given the message he must make changes. He knows he needs to win now. He’s hitting the transfer portal harder than ever. Even as a Frank defender, he should have been doing this earlier.

To answer your question:
1. At least an NIT birth next year, winning somewhere in the neighborhood of 18-20 games. Realistically most years we win this many games we still do not make the NCAA tournament, but it would be real improvement.

2. Frank is in a sink or swim year. Everyone knows it. Contract got restructured and he’s getting a ton of transfers. Everyone knows that if he wins 12 or less games next season, it’s his last. If he’s in the 13-17 win mark, it’s iffy. If he gets 18 or more wins, then you’re firing just to make a change.

Thanks for answering!
 
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southflcock

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FM doesn’t recruit shooters and that needs to change! Quite often his players are afraid to push the ball to the basket because of a FM tirade. Once they’ve been in the program they become more comfortable driving to the basket(ie Kotsar). We need 3-4 pure shooters in the team, we need to average 85% or above in FT’s and play stingy tight defense!
 
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viennacocks

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Dec 19, 2011
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FM doesn’t recruit shooters and that needs to change! Quite often his players are afraid to push the ball to the basket because of a FM tirade. Once they’ve been in the program they become more comfortable driving to the basket(ie Kotsar). We need 3-4 pure shooters in the team, we need to average 85% or above in FT’s and play stingy tight defense!
I can only name 2-3 pure shooter that he recruited / developed. I would take 70-75% from the line.
 
Jan 28, 2021
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I am still pro Frank.

But it's not just about Frank. I look at it this way. If you are going to fire a coach, you better have somebody lined up better. I don't see us having the pull or the money to get anybody better at this time. Focus on football and give Frank a chance to turn it around over the next 2-3 of years. Making the tourney or have a run in the NIT in the next two years would satisfy me for the immediate future. Then build on that.
 
Oct 22, 2020
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Who extends a coach with a 60% win record heading into his 10th year? The final 4 run was a complete fluke. They weren’t even ranked the entire regular season and he’s still using that as leverage 4 years later. This smells just like Muschamp’s renewed contract after a mediocre season. One thing is for sure. Winning games is not a prerequisite to coach at USC. Beamer loves this because he knows winning doesn’t really matter at USC.
 

OldWiseCock

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Apr 3, 2019
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I'd prefer this to not get overrun with discussions of Frank's performance.

There are a few posters who firmly believe Frank has earned the chance to turn the team around. So I have 2 questions I'd just like to get simple answers on, without bashing anyone's response:
1. What constitutes turning the team around?
2. How many more seasons does he deserves to accomplish it?

I'd prefer to keep the anti-Frank discussion to the many other threads if possible. I'm sure it's not.
I guess I'd be considered pro-Frank. I would have been okay if he had been fired, but not if they hired Boynton. Kelsey or Richey would have been okay with me ... I can think of a few others. But I like Frank and I thought it was kinda unfair to fire the dude when he had Covid twice.

Anyway ...

1) He has to have a winning season next year. They aren't going to look at roster turnover, injuries or anything else. Win more than you lose.
2) One season. If he loses one more than he wins next season he is out. PERIOD.
 

Gamecock Lifer

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Oct 8, 2008
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Who extends a coach with a 60% win record heading into his 10th year? The final 4 run was a complete fluke. They weren’t even ranked the entire regular season and he’s still using that as leverage 4 years later. This smells just like Muschamp’s renewed contract after a mediocre season. One thing is for sure. Winning games is not a prerequisite to coach at USC. Beamer loves this because he knows winning doesn’t really matter at USC.
The final four run was not a fluke- it was the culmination of two consecutive seasons where we tied, then broke our school record for wins in a season. That team was built by Frank and they were damn good. This situation is nothing like the extension to WM- he got a big raise and insane buyout because of what had happened the year prior to the one when he signed his extension (9 wins). Martin got an extension in name only- with no raise and no buyout increases or extensions leaving the last two seasons with a $0 buyout. Two contracts and circumstances could almost not be more DISimilar TBH.

I am neither for or against Martin, I just want the Gamecocks to be good, to win, to compete and to be something I can be proud of as a fan. What gets under my skin is people spouting off immature insults, lies and making up BS because their feelings are hurt because the team didn’t win enough. None of us can control it and crying about it or lashing out constantly on a message board attacking our coaches, players and admin is just... petulant. Everyone gets mad sometimes during/just after a bad loss... Venting then is one thing. People carrying a grudge around and trashing everything our program does all the way down to every player we sign are toxic. Literally cancers within our fan base who think those who still pull for the team are part of the problem, when in actuality the incesant negativity spawned by those whiney bitches is literally “the chicken curse” embodied. The MINDSET around here is always negative- Spurrier talked about how we need to change it when he was here and he did for a while, but it was always there bubbling under the surface.

The results from last year did not warrant any coach keeping their job. Ignoring the extenuating circumstances and correlated financial hardships caused by them and compounded by the FB coach’s buyout though is just silly. To answer the OP’s question- Everyone, including Frank, knows he needs to make the post season (NIT at minimum) this coming year or he is gone.
 

Gamecockben1979

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Jun 5, 2017
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Who extends a coach with a 60% win record heading into his 10th year? The final 4 run was a complete fluke. They weren’t even ranked the entire regular season and he’s still using that as leverage 4 years later. This smells just like Muschamp’s renewed contract after a mediocre season. One thing is for sure. Winning games is not a prerequisite to coach at USC. Beamer loves this because he knows winning doesn’t really matter at USC.

Scott Drew just won the national title. His overall winning percentage is 63%. Jim Valvano at 62%. Bob Mckillop at 61%. Lon Kruger just retired after a lengthy career right at 60%. Doesn’t sound great but in basketball 60% isn’t that bad for an overall record.
 
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adcoop

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Jan 10, 2004
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I am probably in the minority with this opinion. However, this whole ordeal with Frank Martin was predictable. He’s a C+ game coach that wins the press conference with alumni. He’s a D- minus coach in the recruiting game and in player retention. So, what you have at the end of the day is a barely C- coach in today’s college game and that is being generous. Everything that has happened here is similar to his stint at K-State. Good run at K-State culminating in an Elite 8 followed by player defections and a feud with the AD. When he left K-State, half the roster was threatening to leave. Sound Familiar? Sure does to me. Martin has shown that he can get a team to compete. However, he has, also, shown that his act wears thin on players and fan bases. Most importantly, Martin seems to have this feud with today’s generation of parents. He may have a point. However, he ultimately has to go into the living rooms of some of those same parents trying to get their children to play for him. His act doesn’t play well with a whole lot of parents especially some of the Dads who are not going to tolerate him crossing a line with their child that they wouldn’t even cross. So, where we are right now was apredictable to me. It’s too bad it took 4 years of recruiting misses after our Final Four and a Covid season for many to realize it.
 
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FORKCOCK

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Feb 11, 2006
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Today's youth and guys like Frank are at other ends of the spectrum. I'm not saying that's a good thing but it is reality. In my opinion, due to Frank's style, we will continue getting guys who do not have better offers.
 
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polo-loco

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Jan 13, 2005
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I am still pro Frank.

But it's not just about Frank. I look at it this way. If you are going to fire a coach, you better have somebody lined up better. I don't see us having the pull or the money to get anybody better at this time. Focus on football and give Frank a chance to turn it around over the next 2-3 of years. Making the tourney or have a run in the NIT in the next two years would satisfy me for the immediate future. Then build on that.
That coach was at Winthrop.
 

OldWiseCock

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Apr 3, 2019
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Who extends a coach with a 60% win record heading into his 10th year? The final 4 run was a complete fluke. They weren’t even ranked the entire regular season and he’s still using that as leverage 4 years later. This smells just like Muschamp’s renewed contract after a mediocre season. One thing is for sure. Winning games is not a prerequisite to coach at USC. Beamer loves this because he knows winning doesn’t really matter at USC.
If CWM had won 60% of his football games he would still be coaching football at SC.

The FF was not a fluke. You don't fluke your way to wins over Marquette, Duke, Baylor, Florida and almost beat Gonzaga. (4 points)
 

ForeUSC

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I am still pro Frank.

But it's not just about Frank. I look at it this way. If you are going to fire a coach, you better have somebody lined up better. I don't see us having the pull or the money to get anybody better at this time. Focus on football and give Frank a chance to turn it around over the next 2-3 of years. Making the tourney or have a run in the NIT in the next two years would satisfy me for the immediate future. Then build on that.
Don’t fire a coach unless you have Somebody lined who is better. You mean like we did with Muschamp/Beamer. Or maybe you’re talking about Duke when they fired Waters(?) I think and hired Coach K. They got somebody better. What a genius their AD was. I’m sure he knew Coach K was better.
My point is we need to bite the bullet and get us a different bb coach and hope like heck he is better than Martin.
 

Harvard Gamecock

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If CWM had won 60% of his football games he would still be coaching football at SC.

The FF was not a fluke. You don't fluke your way to wins over Marquette, Duke, Baylor, Florida and almost beat Gonzaga. (4 points)
Many would contend that if you are only able to do this one and only one time, that is the very definition of a fluke.
 

Lurker123

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May 4, 2020
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Many would contend that if you are only able to do this one and only one time, that is the very definition of a fluke.

This.

Cinderella teams happen every too, that is true. But that just means flukes are common, imo. Maybe b-ball is just easier to have any team get "hot" at any time. (As opposed to football)

I suppose a way to think about it is, if the ff run wasnt a fluke, and was the product of Frank's coaching, why hasn't he even approached doing it again?

As for keeping Frank? If you dont care about basketball, or are fine with the current results, keep him. If you want a really good basketball team, I suppose just go watch the girls team.
 
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OldWiseCock

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Many would contend that if you are only able to do this one and only one time, that is the very definition of a fluke.
I would agree had we only beaten Marquette and/or Duke. In my opinion, that team was several years in the making and hit its stride at the right moment. If we had that entire team back the following year we would have been right back in it.
 

atlanta cock#

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I would agree had we only beaten Marquette and/or Duke. In my opinion, that team was several years in the making and hit its stride at the right moment. If we had that entire team back the following year we would have been right back in it.
Couldn’t every Final 4 team say this?
 

Kuga1414

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I'm not pro- or anti-Martin. I do, however, think a change should have been made, based on the direction of the program the past 4 years, recruiting trends, etc.

However, to address the questions from the OP:

2. I think this question should be answered first. Considering HOW ugly things are around the program right now, Frank should only get one, final chance. If he can't "turn it around" this season, we need to be looking for a new coach in 10 months.

1. As to what "turn it around" should mean: Given the lack of talent in the program, I'd feel goofy asking for an NCAA appearance. So, from a 'results" standpoint, I'd say Frank should be expected to finish near the middle of the SEC pack, but probably just below it...maybe 8th or 9th, with close to a .500 in-conference record. Just as importantly, Frank needs his team to perform well out of conference. If he manages something like 10-3 OOC (and I don't mean 10 wins against D2 and bottom of the barrel teams...at least somewhat respectable wins) and maybe 8-10 in conference, that would be 18-13. Maybe a win or two in the SEC-T could get an NIT invite.

Aside from in-game results, I'd also expect to see immediate recruiting results. I don't know who Frank is recruiting for the 2022 class, but unless I saw a serious, serious upgrade in his commitments for that class, I'd send him packing, pretty much regardless of wins/losses.
8th or 9th in the SEC is acceptable to you?
 
Oct 22, 2020
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If CWM had won 60% of his football games he would still be coaching football at SC.

The FF was not a fluke. You don't fluke your way to wins over Marquette, Duke, Baylor, Florida and almost beat Gonzaga. (4 points)
So I guess the 11 losses that year were intentional?
 

FORKCOCK

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Why should Martin be given a chance to “turn around” a program he has been in charge of for 9 years. Who allowed the program to get to the point that it needs to be “turned around” . I guess I’m too stupid to understand that.

Agreed.
 

atl-cock

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May 3, 2006
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I am still pro Frank.

But it's not just about Frank. I look at it this way. If you are going to fire a coach, you better have somebody lined up better. I don't see us having the pull or the money to get anybody better at this time. Focus on football and give Frank a chance to turn it around over the next 2-3 of years. Making the tourney or have a run in the NIT in the next two years would satisfy me for the immediate future. Then build on that.
Focus on baseball!
 

Kitchenlabs

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Who extends a coach with a 60% win record heading into his 10th year? The final 4 run was a complete fluke. They weren’t even ranked the entire regular season and he’s still using that as leverage 4 years later. This smells just like Muschamp’s renewed contract after a mediocre season. One thing is for sure. Winning games is not a prerequisite to coach at USC. Beamer loves this because he knows winning doesn’t really matter at USC.
This smells like a tater.
 
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