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Anyone have an example of a HC becoming a winner after failing at it for 6 out of 8 years?

Toneski M

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Jun 19, 2005
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I’m giving Muschamp credit for being a “winner” in two years where one was at UF and he had an offense that was awful but he still had double digit wins and one where he won 8 games at SC in what was likely the weakest schedule we’ve ever had in SEC play and did it with an awful offense and middling defense.

The main point of the question is....don’t HC’s who turn out to be good show a winning trend/upward momentum by year 3, or sooner?

For those of us hoping that Muschamp becomes a consistent winner here, aren’t we really hoping for Muschamp to become something that 8 years of data shows he’s not, and something that statistics across college football show is unlikely to happen?
 
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Probably the best example I can think of is Frank Beamer. He inherited a disaster at Va Tech. In his 6th year they went 2-8-1. Luckily, things took off for him the next year.

He did have the fact that he played at Virginia Tech and they were transitioning to the Big East during that time. He did have some success at Murray State prior.

Now I get what you’re saying and for the most part it doesn’t go well....
 
Probably the best example I can think of is Frank Beamer. He inherited a disaster at Va Tech. In his 6th year they went 2-8-1. Luckily, things took off for him the next year.

He did have the fact that he played at Virginia Tech and they were transitioning to the Big East during that time. He did have some success at Murray State prior.

Now I get what you’re saying and for the most part it doesn’t go well....
Good example. He is also the only one that comes to mind for me.
 
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We will probably never see those days again where a coach is given 6 years to turn a program around. In Beamer and VT's defense, VT was hampered by scholarship restrictions due to NCAA violations. So in light of Beamer's predicament some forgiveness by VT was granted.

I can't think in today's environment where a school would be willing to fall further behind by holding on to a coach who was not producing satisfactory improvement. I mean, who would do that ? Eyeroll
 
I’m giving Muschamp credit for being a “winner” in two years where one was at UF and he had an offense that was awful but he still had double digit wins and one where he won 8 games at SC in what was likely the weakest schedule we’ve ever had in SEC play and did it with an awful offense and middling defense.

The main point of the question is....don’t HC’s who turn out to be good show a winning trend/upward momentum by year 3, or sooner?

For those of us hoping that Muschamp becomes a consistent winner here, aren’t we really hoping for Muschamp to become something that 8 years of data shows he’s not, and something that statistics across college football show is unlikely to happen?
Typically, in today’s game if things aren’t working out really well by year 2/3 they fire the coach, so there will be virtually ZERO cases of this happening. He took over a 3 win team, took us to 3 consecutive bowl games and had a 9 win season in year two. Last year was a disaster for sure, But it is not accurate to imply there has been no success to warrant him getting a year or two to turn things around right now when you look at what he did the first three years with the dumpster fire he inherited. No two situations are alike but it is accurate to say he has been a winner here more years than he has been a loser in his first 4 years. This would not be a redemption story where he was bad for 4-5 years then turned it around.

If we start winning now, it will imply last year was more of a fluke caused by an insane number of injuries on offense, and winning is more the trend for him here.
 
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Always remember it’s about what have you done for me recently. Let dabo go 3-9 3 years in a row and his head will be on the chop and block to
 
Ed Orgeron
This is really the best comparison to WM. Failed as a head coach, was always a great coordinator, got his second chance at LSU... Never looked back on the way to 15-0 and a Natty last year. Shows you that 1- coaches can learn and improve over time and 2- it really IS much mich easier to win at a traditional powerhouse program. Building a school like USC or one of the Mississippis into a winner is a real challenge, it takes tome and patience and certainly is not likely to be done within a few years. Took Spurrier 5-6 years to get us to the peak we hit under him!
 
This is really the best comparison to WM. Failed as a head coach, was always a great coordinator, got his second chance at LSU... Never looked back on the way to 15-0 and a Natty last year. Shows you that 1- coaches can learn and improve over time and 2- it really IS much mich easier to win at a traditional powerhouse program. Building a school like USC or one of the Mississippis into a winner is a real challenge, it takes tome and patience and certainly is not likely to be done within a few years. Took Spurrier 5-6 years to get us to the peak we hit under him!
Actually, I think it’s a poor example. A good coach is a good coach, and a good recruiter is a good recruiter. But what happens if WM goes to LSU instead of Orgeron? What if Orgeron comes to USC instead of LSU? It’s apples to oranges in my opinion...
 
By the time Nick Saban turned 50 his total HC record was 43-24-1 against the MAC and Big10 Competition ...here was his history.... Toledo 9-2... 4 years as Defensive Coordinator at Cleveland Browns.. Michigan State 6-5-1 , 6-6 , 7-5, 6-6, 9-2

Will Muschamp is 49..... His HC record is 54-46 and 100% against SEC Competition He has experience as a Defensive Coordinator at a 2 National Championship programs (Texas and LSU) and Top Defenses at Auburn. He also has 2 years experience as NFL asst coach.

There are lots of variables that affect records. Also our in-state power happens to become the National Elite Power (tough to recruit against)

Saban started really taking off at LSU. His first year at LSU was 8-4. LSU recruits against no one in state and that talent helped propel Saban and give him momentum. Saban got to Bama and with all of that tradition helped put him in a position to really succeed.

We have to look at ourselves HONESTLY. We don't have the LSU and BAMA tradition that helped Saban. Will Muschamp has recruited especially well here and for what he was blasted for he has succeeded in a big way- and that's recruiting QBs. He was left with an empty cupboard and his 1 month of extraordinary recruiting can't be overlooked in 2015-2016. He really has done a lot of good things here as well as helped push forward the Doty Center. He's honest and past players love em. I'm not giving up on him. His gig is tougher than any of you would have the balls to do. He's building a program not a team and I believe he is doing it the right way. It was decades or poor leadership that left us in this position and it's not an overnight fix. It even took Spurrier 6 years before he won the east and 7 before a 10 win season. A big part of that was getting a Good QB and a 5 star RB and DL. We just got the QBs and a 5 star RB and now 2 DL. Ya'll are going to have to trust the process and be patient.
 
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Mark Stoops had losing records his first 3 years, then eked out two 7-6 records, then won 10 games then 8 last year

Not exactly what you're looking for but that is who I thought of
 
By the time Nick Saban turned 50 his total HC record was 43-24-1 against the MAC and Big10 Competition ...here was his history.... Toledo 9-2... 4 years as Defensive Coordinator at Cleveland Browns.. Michigan State 6-5-1 , 6-6 , 7-5, 6-6, 9-2

Will Muschamp is 49..... His HC record is 54-46 and 100% against SEC Competition He has experience as a Defensive Coordinator at a 2 National Championship programs (Texas and LSU) and Top Defenses at Auburn. He also has 2 years experience as NFL asst coach.

There are lots of variables that affect records. Also our in-state power happens to become the National Elite Power (tough to recruit against)

Saban started really taking off at LSU. His first year at LSU was 8-4. LSU recruits against no one in state and that talent helped propel Saban and give him momentum. Saban got to Bama and with all of that tradition helped put him in a position to really succeed.

We have to look at ourselves HONESTLY. We don't have the LSU and BAMA tradition that helped Saban. Will Muschamp has recruited especially well here and for what he was blasted for he has succeeded in a big way- and that's recruiting QBs. He was left with an empty cupboard and his 1 month of extraordinary recruiting can't be overlooked in 2015-2016. He really has done a lot of good things here as well as helped push forward the Doty Center. He's honest and past players love em. I'm not giving up on him. His gig is tougher than any of you would have the balls to do.
You make some excellent underrated points. I’m not ready to 100% defend WM, but these stats are relevant.
 
I’m giving Muschamp credit for being a “winner” in two years where one was at UF and he had an offense that was awful but he still had double digit wins and one where he won 8 games at SC in what was likely the weakest schedule we’ve ever had in SEC play and did it with an awful offense and middling defense.

The main point of the question is....don’t HC’s who turn out to be good show a winning trend/upward momentum by year 3, or sooner?

For those of us hoping that Muschamp becomes a consistent winner here, aren’t we really hoping for Muschamp to become something that 8 years of data shows he’s not, and something that statistics across college football show is unlikely to happen?
Although he had prior success at a small school (Murray St.), Frank Beamer had losing records at VT four of his first six years, and his two winning seasons in that stretch were 6-5 and 6-4-1. Starting in year seven, they took the next step and went on a 19-year run where they averaged 9+ wins. Perhaps CWM started too high on the ladder and is learning on the job, but this is probably the most solid staff he’s had at either stop.
 
Typically, in today’s game if things aren’t working out really well by year 2/3 they fire the coach, so there will be virtually ZERO cases of this happening. He took over a 3 win team, took us to 3 consecutive bowl games and had a 9 win season in year two. Last year was a disaster for sure, But it is not accurate to imply there has been no success to warrant him getting a year or two to turn things around right now when you look at what he did the first three years with the dumpster fire he inherited. No two situations are alike but it is accurate to say he has been a winner here more years than he has been a loser in his first 4 years. This would not be a redemption story where he was bad for 4-5 years then turned it around.

If we start winning now, it will imply last year was mire of a fluke caused by an insane number of injuries on offense, and winning is more the trend for him here.
you know you cant talk facts and truth in here! im just glad that somebody else gets it and understands that we have been behind on scholarship players until this coming year and through no fault of muschamp! just as in other things in todays world, some would rather get rid of champ only because they dont like him. im ready to win too, and i also think we are getting close. we will have more depth at every position this year. and lets not forget that we aint playing the schedule sos played either
 
Bill Snyder at K St. did not do much his first 4 years. Starting in '89 he went 18-26. Then over the next 11 years his teams went 109-29, winning 11 games in 6 of those seasons. I think most on here would take that record in a heartbeat. It's not out of the realm of possibility. Go Cocks!!!
 
Dabo was 4-3, 9-5, 6-7 before hitting 10 wins per year as a minimum.

Yep and he lost to West Virginia 70-14 and his rival 5 straight years by two touchdowns or more. There are a lot of variables to success and it's not like most people think. Deshawn Watson was probably their most important player to catalyze their success. Does every one remember Cole Stout? They lost to GA Tech 27-6 in 2014 and since they started Watson, they have never looked back.
 
Yep and he lost to West Virginia 70-14 and his rival 5 straight years by two touchdowns or more. There are a lot of variables to success and it's not like most people think. Deshawn Watson was probably their most important player to catalyze their success. Does every one remember Cole Stout? They lost to GA Tech 27-6 in 2014 and since they started Watson, they have never looked back.
Nope CJ spiller started it all.
 
Nope CJ spiller started it all.

They had average and losing seasons after Spiller. They did have good and great talents before Watson but when you get the Gamer /leader/talent like Watson at that position that's propelling to another level. Those players played better because Watson was their QB more than players played better because Spiller was their RB. I'd rather have Watson than Shaw and I LOVE Shaw. Watson was that damn good and big of a difference maker in College.
 
Yep and he lost to West Virginia 70-14 and his rival 5 straight years by two touchdowns or more. There are a lot of variables to success and it's not like most people think. Deshawn Watson was probably their most important player to catalyze their success. Does every one remember Cole Stout? They lost to GA Tech 27-6 in 2014 and since they started Watson, they have never looked back.
This!!! Never get tired of being reminded....
 
They had average and losing seasons after Spiller. They did have good and great talents before Watson but when you get the Gamer /leader/talent like Watson at that position that's propelling to another level. Those players played better because Watson was their QB more than players played better because Spiller was their RB. I'd rather have Watson than Shaw and I LOVE Shaw. Watson was that damn good and big of a difference maker in College.
Don’t argue with that but without C.J. there would be no dabo. There success now goes back to getting him.
 
Actually, I think it’s a poor example. A good coach is a good coach, and a good recruiter is a good recruiter. But what happens if WM goes to LSU instead of Orgeron? What if Orgeron comes to USC instead of LSU? It’s apples to oranges in my opinion...
Is it? I think almost identical things would have happened if Ed O was here and WM was at LSU the past few years. I think LSU would have won a Natty with Burrow, and Ed O and every other coach in the world would have struggled to eek out 4-5 wins with the second hardest schedule in the nation and an offense that lost at LEAST the top 2 players on every offensive position to injury at some point during the season.
 
By the time Nick Saban turned 50 his total HC record was 43-24-1 against the MAC and Big10 Competition ...here was his history.... Toledo 9-2... 4 years as Defensive Coordinator at Cleveland Browns.. Michigan State 6-5-1 , 6-6 , 7-5, 6-6, 9-2

Will Muschamp is 49..... His HC record is 54-46 and 100% against SEC Competition He has experience as a Defensive Coordinator at a 2 National Championship programs (Texas and LSU) and Top Defenses at Auburn. He also has 2 years experience as NFL asst coach.

There are lots of variables that affect records. Also our in-state power happens to become the National Elite Power (tough to recruit against)

Saban started really taking off at LSU. His first year at LSU was 8-4. LSU recruits against no one in state and that talent helped propel Saban and give him momentum. Saban got to Bama and with all of that tradition helped put him in a position to really succeed.

We have to look at ourselves HONESTLY. We don't have the LSU and BAMA tradition that helped Saban. Will Muschamp has recruited especially well here and for what he was blasted for he has succeeded in a big way- and that's recruiting QBs. He was left with an empty cupboard and his 1 month of extraordinary recruiting can't be overlooked in 2015-2016. He really has done a lot of good things here as well as helped push forward the Doty Center. He's honest and past players love em. I'm not giving up on him. His gig is tougher than any of you would have the balls to do. He's building a program not a team and I believe he is doing it the right way. It was decades or poor leadership that left us in this position and it's not an overnight fix. It even took Spurrier 6 years before he won the east and 7 before a 10 win season. A big part of that was getting a Good QB and a 5 star RB and DL. We just got the QBs and a 5 star RB and now 2 DL. Ya'll are going to have to trust the process and be patient.
All of that would be fine if Muschamp hadn’t flopped at Florida. It’s not like they didn’t have a history of success and aren’t in a place that is lacking talent. If you can’t win at a place that is tailor made for winning why would you expect success in a place that would actually require skill?
 
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Is it? I think almost identical things would have happened if Ed O was here and WM was at LSU the past few years. I think LSU would have won a Natty with Burrow, and Ed O and every other coach in the world would have struggled to eek out 4-5 wins with the second hardest schedule in the nation and an offense that lost at LEAST the top 2 players on every offensive position to injury at some point during the season.
So you think Burrow would have transferred to play for Muschamp and Orgeron would have hired a failure for an OC a second time around, a conditioning program that seems to bring injuries in multiple locations and an guy to play gimmicks with his oline?

If Muschamp went to LSU with Roper and his hand picked staff we’d all be amazed that a guy was given the opportunity to fail at two SEC schools. Oh wait...that last part is already true.
 
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All of that would be fine if Muschamp hadn’t flopped at Florida. It’s not like they didn’t have a history of success and aren’t in a place that is lacking talent. If you can’t win at a place that is tailor made for winning why would you expect success in a place that would actually require skill?

thats a fair point; however there’s another counter against that he did Win 11 games one season there without a great QB. Also he dropped off 2 seasons. Meyer was 8-5 and 9-3 the years he didn’t have Tebow. Sure Muschamp was 4-6 a year at Florida. Difference was the QB. Also how did the uncontrollable play into it like injuries? Maybe he had more? Maybe he had less than Meyer? Florida was recruiting in state against then National Power Florida State. When Meyer was there Florida State was mediocre. It takes time to develop as a head coach as it’s entirely different skill set than assistant. The question is has he learned? He has been addressing the QB issue superbly. Also he has garnered more experience from his time at Florida and he has mellowed out to become more of a CEO instead of coordinator coach. He took us from 3-9 to 6-7 in 1st year with a depleted roster. Then 9-4 with aNew Year’s Day bowl win vs Michigan. Last two have been tough but we have also been
Snake bit with injuries (Deebo, Bentley, 3/4 of our starting D in 2018) more relative to other teams. There’s a whole lot more to analyze under the surface before you give fair appraisal.
 
thats a fair point; however there’s another counter against that he did Win 11 games one season there without a great QB. Also he dropped off 2 seasons. Meyer was 8-5 and 9-3 the years he didn’t have Tebow. Sure Muschamp was 4-6 a year at Florida. Difference was the QB. Also how did the uncontrollable play into it like injuries? Maybe he had more? Maybe he had less than Meyer? Florida was recruiting in state against then National Power Florida State. When Meyer was there Florida State was mediocre. It takes time to develop as a head coach as it’s entirely different skill set than assistant. The question is has he learned? He has been addressing the QB issue superbly. Also he has garnered more experience from his time at Florida and he has mellowed out to become more of a CEO instead of coordinator coach. He took us from 3-9 to 6-7 in 1st year with a depleted roster. Then 9-4 with aNew Year’s Day bowl win vs Michigan. Last two have been tough but we have also been
Snake bit with injuries (Deebo, Bentley, 3/4 of our starting D in 2018) more relative to other teams. There’s a whole lot more to analyze under the surface before you give fair appraisal.
Well he’s consistent if nothing else. Issues at QB, issues with injuries and a worsening record the longer his hand picked coaches work with players. It seems like the Muschamp pattern has been pretty well established.
 
Is it? I think almost identical things would have happened if Ed O was here and WM was at LSU the past few years. I think LSU would have won a Natty with Burrow, and Ed O and every other coach in the world would have struggled to eek out 4-5 wins with the second hardest schedule in the nation and an offense that lost at LEAST the top 2 players on every offensive position to injury at some point during the season.
I agree with you. It’s why I’m saying that Ed O isn’t necessarily a good example of a great coach. Either that or WM isn’t a great example of a poor coach.
 
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Probably the best example I can think of is Frank Beamer. He inherited a disaster at Va Tech. In his 6th year they went 2-8-1. Luckily, things took off for him the next year.

He did have the fact that he played at Virginia Tech and they were transitioning to the Big East during that time. He did have some success at Murray State prior.

Now I get what you’re saying and for the most part it doesn’t go well....

muschamp has already proven he is terrible. He had proven it already when he was interviewed. That’s the difference. Tanner is the disaster that keeps on giving.
 
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