Anyone have an example of a HC becoming a winner after failing at it for 6 out of 8 years?

[stormtrooper2001]

Well he’s consistent if nothing else. Issues at QB, issues with injuries and a worsening record the longer his hand picked coaches work with players. It seems like the Muschamp pattern has been pretty well established.

I'm just pointing out a perspective that may need some attention to give fair evaluations. I'm not 100% if he is the guy or not but I give him more credit than most. Injuries are 95%+ uncontrollable I don't care what stretching and hydration/nutrition plans you have. Blaming him for injuries is crazy and that's a big part . Also, I wonder what your stance was with Spurrier after his 5th season getting smoked to UCONN in the PapaJohns bowl? Are you one of those guys who says "Fire The Coordinator!" after we don't get a first down in the 1st quarter?

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

So you think Burrow would have transferred to play for Muschamp and Orgeron would have hired a failure for an OC a second time around, a conditioning program that seems to bring injuries in multiple locations and an guy to play gimmicks with his oline?

If Muschamp went to LSU with Roper and his hand picked staff we’d all be amazed that a guy was given the opportunity to fail at two SEC schools. Oh wait...that last part is already true.

Yes. Burrow transferred TO LSU, not Orgeron and Muschamp is a fantastic recruiter. Maybe not as good as Ed O but he has been right up there when given a chance at a school like Florida... They were in a bad way when he took over, but he had built a solid defense when he was fired and I am sure he would have done just as good as Mclwain had he been retained... The players he recruited won the East a few times after he left. Again- winning at a powerhouse program like LSU is so much easier than the lower tier SEC programs. It is easier to get the elite talent but also easier because if you are coaching at LSU, YOU DON’T HAVE TO PLAY LSU every year= your schedule is way easier! Orgeron failed as a head coach originally I was surprised he got the second chance at LSU. I see a lot of similarities... Obviously no two situations are identical but I think Muschamp would have done fine in similar circumstances. Ed O went from 10-25 at Missi to undefeated at LSU last year. That seriously craps all over the “a good coach is just a good coach” theory floated earlier in the thread. Circumstance has a lot more to do with it. LSU gave a great sir circunstance to take over and suddenly he is a great coach? No- he is the same coach over a great program. UF was a dumpster fire Inside the locker room- behavior issues, criminals... Muschamp was tasked with rebuilding the identity of a program and not given the time to do it. Orgeron was handed the keys to a shiny new Caddy and asked to pull it on in the driveway.

 

[Gradstudent]

Johnny Majors is not far off in first 6 years

1968 Iowa State = 3-7
1969 Iowa State = 3-7
1970 Iowa State = 5-6
1971 Iowa State= 8-4
1972 Iowa State =5-6
1973 Pitt = 6-6-1
1974 Pitt = 7-4
1975 Pitt = 8-4
1976 Pitt = 12-0

 

[Dizzy01]

I'm just pointing out a perspective that may need some attention to give fair evaluations. I'm not 100% if he is the guy or not but I give him more credit than most. Injuries are 95%+ uncontrollable I don't care what stretching and hydration/nutrition plans you have. Blaming him for injuries is crazy and that's a big part . Also, I wonder what your stance was with Spurrier after his 5th season getting smoked to UCONN in the PapaJohns bowl? Are you one of those guys who says "Fire The Coordinator!" after we don't get a first down in the 1st quarter?

Injuries can be unavoidable but we saw here a rash of hamstring and muscle related injuries over a few years that went away when the strength and conditioning staff changed. So either there was some impact due to the change, the players stopped faking injuries or all of a sudden the bad luck with injuries just stopped at the time of the change.

In terms of Spurrier there was a lot more indication that he was able to coach. He hadn’t flopped at his only other HC gig, he didn’t swap coaches consistently getting the same results and he had shown flashes of success with his players as well as Lou’s players. I was critical of his obsession with the QB that didn’t have the necessary level of commitment to be successful as opposed to moving on to guys who were More interested in being the star QB than just living the lifestyle.

As for the OC there are some times when things just don’t work but Muschamp doesn’t have the occasional play not work as much as just a flat failure in the process. He has had almost as many OCs as he’s had years as a HC including bringing back a guy who was terrible the first time he worked with him.

I know everyone hopes for the best since we are stuck with him but it would be a miracle at this point if he all of a sudden figured everything out as opposed to repeating the same pattern of behavior and results.

 

[Dizzy01]

Yes. Burrow transferred TO LSU, not Orgeron and Muschamp is a fantastic recruiter. Maybe not as good as Ed O but he has been right up there when given a chance at a school like Florida... They were in a bad way when he took over, but he had built a solid defense when he was fired and I am sure he would have done just as good as Mclwain had he been retained... The players he recruited won the East a few times after he left. Again- winning at a powerhouse program like LSU is so much easier than the lower tier SEC programs. It is easier to get the elite talent but also easier because if you are coaching at LSU, YOU DON’T HAVE TO PLAY LSU every year= your schedule is way easier! Orgeron failed as a head coach originally I was surprised he got the second chance at LSU. I see a lot of similarities... Obviously no two situations are identical but I think Muschamp would have done fine in similar circumstances. Ed O went from 10-25 at Missi to undefeated at LSU last year. That seriously craps all over the “a good coach is just a good coach” theory floated earlier in the thread. Circumstance has a lot more to do with it. LSU gave a great sir circunstance to take over and suddenly he is a great coach? No- he is the same coach over a great program. UF was a dumpster fire Inside the locker room- behavior issues, criminals... Muschamp was tasked with rebuilding the identity of a program and not given the time to do it. Orgeron was handed the keys to a shiny new Caddy and asked to pull it on in the driveway.

Using this logic shouldn’t Muschamp have had an easier time at Florida because he didn’t have to coach against Florida? If just being at a top program guarantees success then why do they ever replace coaches outside of guys leaving for other opportunities? Isn’t it telling that Muschamp has success with players coached by another staff, lack of results when his staff is more involved and then success again when a new staff gets involved? I have no doubts that another staff could come in here with his players and have success. I don’t think Muschamp has an issue necessarily getting guys on campus just his ability to do anything with them when he gets them here. In essence he’s Dabo without the self awareness to get actual coaches and just be a recruiter/cheerleader.

 

[ctgarric]

Steve Spurrier

 

[king ward]

My impression of Muschamp has not changed. I have always believed he was a superior football expert, intelligent, and a very hard worker. I think he has a clear picture of the program he wants to build and the structure of the organization he wants.

What he hasn't been able to do, from either the player or the coaching standpoint, is to get enough of the right people together at the same time. That's the ability that has lifted the UPC program, and dramatically, the UNC program.

When it's all said and done, winning in college football comes to those who can get all the right people together. That Muschamp couldn't do it at Florida is a little disturbing, although he had some serious cultural issues to clean up. Meyer ran a sewer down there.

But he also needs to get it done here soon because we don't have any heritage to fall back on. In a program like ours, that is in a tough league and trying to gain traction, if you don't prove you can do it in a timely fashion, the people you need to get it done lose confidence in the project and stay away. That is the danger now.

 

[importcock]

Don’t argue with that but without C.J. there would be no dabo. There success now goes back to getting him.

And I still wonder how much $$$ that cost them. Whatever it was, it was a good investment.

 

[sclawman77]

True.

But to be fair, he started at Cleveland.

Pete Carroll was an average NFL coach before taking over Southern Cal. Of course he cheated so that helps. I can't stand him but he's done well at Seattle. That said, I think Muschamp is a lost cause.

 

[stormtrooper2001]

My impression of Muschamp has not changed. I have always believed he was a superior football expert, intelligent, and a very hard worker. I think he has a clear picture of the program he wants to build and the structure of the organization he wants.

What he hasn't been able to do, from either the player or the coaching standpoint, is to get enough of the right people together at the same time. That's the ability that has lifted the UPC program, and dramatically, the UNC program.

When it's all said and done, winning in college football comes to those who can get all the right people together. That Muschamp couldn't do it at Florida is a little disturbing, although he had some serious cultural issues to clean up. Meyer ran a sewer down there.

But he also needs to get it done here soon because we don't have any heritage to fall back on. In a program like ours, that is in a tough league and trying to gain traction, if you don't prove you can do it in a timely fashion, the people you need to get it done lose confidence in the project and stay away. That is the danger now.

That's a very fair assessment. There are a lot of things that do need to come together at the right time. Muschamp has all of the right elements man but you are right he hasn't gotten everyone at the same place at the same time.

 

[sclawman77]

My impression of Muschamp has not changed. I have always believed he was a superior football expert, intelligent, and a very hard worker. I think he has a clear picture of the program he wants to build and the structure of the organization he wants.

What he hasn't been able to do, from either the player or the coaching standpoint, is to get enough of the right people together at the same time. That's the ability that has lifted the UPC program, and dramatically, the UNC program.

When it's all said and done, winning in college football comes to those who can get all the right people together. That Muschamp couldn't do it at Florida is a little disturbing, although he had some serious cultural issues to clean up. Meyer ran a sewer down there.

But he also needs to get it done here soon because we don't have any heritage to fall back on. In a program like ours, that is in a tough league and trying to gain traction, if you don't prove you can do it in a timely fashion, the people you need to get it done lose confidence in the project and stay away. That is the danger now.

Fair points. Think there's a big difference in saying the right things and doing the right things.

 

[world famous 3rd base hecklers]

lol what?

Bowden
31-6 with Howard
42-26 with WV
33-12 in his first 4 years with fsu
all his jobs were rebuilds


Wm.....
28-21 with Fl which was not a rebuild
26-25 his first 4 years here, was a rebuild

Those apples and oranges are not comparable lol

The question should be asked... How many times did they lose to they rivals or how many blowouts did they at the hands of their rivals....

And I mean blowout games, not hair do's...

 

[jonesz21]

Howard Schnellenberger had many rough years throughout his career.

Don’t count him. They cheated like crazy

 

[BattleshipTexas]

Tom Landry's first six years as a head coach: 0-11-1, 4-9-1, 5-8-1, 4-10, 5-8-1, 7-7.

 

[redrogers]

Although he had prior success at a small school (Murray St.), Frank Beamer had losing records at VT four of his first six years, and his two winning seasons in that stretch were 6-5 and 6-4-1. Starting in year seven, they took the next step and went on a 19-year run where they averaged 9+ wins. Perhaps CWM started too high on the ladder and is learning on the job, but this is probably the most solid staff he’s had at either stop.

Without looking, I believe his 6-4-1 season included a tie to us?

 

[king ward]

Without looking, I believe his 6-4-1 season included a tie to us?

I saw a tie with them in Columbia. 6:00 kickoff on one of the hottest football days I ever lived through. People were monkeying everywhere. Harold Green was carrying the ball for us then.

 

[Dizzy01]

My impression of Muschamp has not changed. I have always believed he was a superior football expert, intelligent, and a very hard worker. I think he has a clear picture of the program he wants to build and the structure of the organization he wants.

What he hasn't been able to do, from either the player or the coaching standpoint, is to get enough of the right people together at the same time. That's the ability that has lifted the UPC program, and dramatically, the UNC program.

When it's all said and done, winning in college football comes to those who can get all the right people together. That Muschamp couldn't do it at Florida is a little disturbing, although he had some serious cultural issues to clean up. Meyer ran a sewer down there.

But he also needs to get it done here soon because we don't have any heritage to fall back on. In a program like ours, that is in a tough league and trying to gain traction, if you don't prove you can do it in a timely fashion, the people you need to get it done lose confidence in the project and stay away. That is the danger now.

I do think if we move on from Muschamp we are in good shape just like Florida was when he left. He has done just as good of a job as Spurrier here bringing in talent but I don’t know why he can’t build a staff. I don’t know if it’s poor evaluation on guys ability, overvaluing some aspects while undervaluing others or just simply poor ability to manage their abilities.

If we brought in another HC with the right staff I believe the results would be very different. Muschamp certainly seems like his peak is as a DC and there is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone who is good at what they do as a coach can succeed at the next tier. Some guys are great position coaches and that’s it.

 

[Lurker123]

Johnny Majors is not far off in first 6 years

1968 Iowa State = 3-7
1969 Iowa State = 3-7
1970 Iowa State = 5-6
1971 Iowa State= 8-4
1972 Iowa State =5-6
1973 Pitt = 6-6-1
1974 Pitt = 7-4
1975 Pitt = 8-4
1976 Pitt = 12-0

I see a trend there that isnt being repeated by Muschamp. But good point.

Too often people use winning percentages without regard for the wins or losses increasing or decreasing over time.

A guy can start 0-12 and end 12-0 and only have a .500 record, but have done a great job building a program.

 

[Cocky4SC]

By the time Nick Saban turned 50 his total HC record was 43-24-1 against the MAC and Big10 Competition ...here was his history.... Toledo 9-2... 4 years as Defensive Coordinator at Cleveland Browns.. Michigan State 6-5-1 , 6-6 , 7-5, 6-6, 9-2

Will Muschamp is 49..... His HC record is 54-46 and 100% against SEC Competition He has experience as a Defensive Coordinator at a 2 National Championship programs (Texas and LSU) and Top Defenses at Auburn. He also has 2 years experience as NFL asst coach.

There are lots of variables that affect records. Also our in-state power happens to become the National Elite Power (tough to recruit against)

Saban started really taking off at LSU. His first year at LSU was 8-4. LSU recruits against no one in state and that talent helped propel Saban and give him momentum. Saban got to Bama and with all of that tradition helped put him in a position to really succeed.

We have to look at ourselves HONESTLY. We don't have the LSU and BAMA tradition that helped Saban. Will Muschamp has recruited especially well here and for what he was blasted for he has succeeded in a big way- and that's recruiting QBs. He was left with an empty cupboard and his 1 month of extraordinary recruiting can't be overlooked in 2015-2016. He really has done a lot of good things here as well as helped push forward the Doty Center. He's honest and past players love em. I'm not giving up on him. His gig is tougher than any of you would have the balls to do. He's building a program not a team and I believe he is doing it the right way. It was decades or poor leadership that left us in this position and it's not an overnight fix. It even took Spurrier 6 years before he won the east and 7 before a 10 win season. A big part of that was getting a Good QB and a 5 star RB and DL. We just got the QBs and a 5 star RB and now 2 DL. Ya'll are going to have to trust the process and be patient.

Mushamp @Florida

2011- 7-6 (Won Gator Bowl)
2012 11-2 (Lost Sugar Bowl)
2013 4-8
2014 6-5

@SC
2016 6-7 (Lost Birmingham Bowl)
2017 9-4 (Won Outback Bowl)
2018 7-6 (Lost Belk Bowl)
2019 4-8


Notice how his record got worse with more of his own players. He won more with Myers players and Spurriers guys than he did/has with his own...

Take a look at what happened to Florida after he was fired in 2014....

2015 10-4
2016 9-4
2017 4-7
2018 10-3
2019 8-6


He might be able to recruit, but just not get the job done at the HC with his own guys.

 

[KA Martin]

The sad thing is, it doesn’t matter if there are other coaches that turned programs into a winner after 8 years. Muschamp is Muschamp, not Beamer, not Bowden, not Belichick. Muschamp has shown no qualities that make me think he can turn this program into a winning program. We all know it’s the assistant coaches that make the difference. He’s made one poor decision after another in the hiring process. Maybe he’ll stumble upon a diamond in the rough assistant, but not likely. And certainly no hot assistant is going to hitch his wagon to Champ. Every season with this current coach is just wasting time that could be spent building something with a real coach.

 

[stormtrooper2001]

Mushamp @Florida

2011- 7-6 (Won Gator Bowl)
2012 11-2 (Lost Sugar Bowl)
2013 4-8
2014 6-5

@SC
2016 6-7 (Lost Birmingham Bowl)
2017 9-4 (Won Outback Bowl)
2018 7-6 (Lost Belk Bowl)
2019 4-8


Notice how his record got worse with more of his own players. He won more with Myers players and Spurriers guys than he did/has with his own...

Take a look at what happened to Florida after he was fired in 2014....

2015 10-4
2016 9-4
2017 4-7
2018 10-3
2019 8-6


He might be able to recruit, but just not get the job done at the HC with his own guys.

Ok so can you dig a little deeper? What has caused this? What underlying variables can you point out? What is it about Muschamp? Also I see that McElwain won with Champs players. Did you take into account injuries? We played #1 toughest schedule last year. Started a True Freshman QB because of an injury to our Sr. North Carolina and Virginia were shit ****s -ill give you that- but Spurrier had Uconn and a shut out at home his 2nd year vs Georgia. Dabo had West Virginia and GT in 2014. Last year we beat Georgia on the road and competed with Florida through the 4th. I'm just saying you give VERY top surface level information-that's cheap. Dig Deeper and provide substance and then I might be sold on your point of view.

 

[Cocky4SC]

Ok so can you dig a little deeper? What has caused this? What underlying variables can you point out? What is it about Muschamp? Also I see that McElwain won with Champs players. Did you take into account injuries? We played #1 toughest schedule last year. Started a True Freshman QB because of an injury to our Sr. North Carolina and Virginia were shit ****s -ill give you that- but Spurrier had Uconn and a shut out at home his 2nd year vs Georgia. Dabo had West Virginia and GT in 2014. Last year we beat Georgia on the road and competed with Florida through the 4th. I'm just saying you give VERY top surface level information-that's cheap. Dig Deeper and provide substance and then I might be sold on your point of view.

Surface level? You are what your record says you are. 26-25 at SC 28-21 at Florid (54-46 Overall.) . I'll answer several of your arguments that you make in this post. Injuries happen at every school. They seem to follow Muschamp/Dillman. We lost Bentley last year, and ended up playing RH. I ask this... Why wasn't another QB ready to go prior to having to play a true freshman? Could we have used the bowl game during the blowout to Virginia play someone else who would've gained some type of experience? But WM didn't make any changes. Last year, Bentley might have gave us maybe one more win... a stretch would have been two. (App St. and the other is unknown). Yes we beat Georgia (I'll take it!), wasn't because of us being dominant as much as it was Georgia being anemic on offense.
Your argument is flawed by giving poor games by Spurrier and Dabo and trying to compare them to overall seasons that Muschamp has had as a coach in the SEC. The facts are simple and not just surface level... he's now beaten only 2 ranked teams since he's been at Carolina. (Georgia last year and Tennessee when they were ranked #23 a few years back). He's 1-6 against the ACC beat NC State in 2017.
We play in the SEC, the schedule isn't ever going to get easier in the league. Even taking away Clemson, we still are going to face the same division opponents each year as well as TAM, add in another west opponent, and at this time under Muschamp, none are gimmes in the conference.
You mention competing against Florida going into the fourth... Muschamp's team lost focus and lost. We were beating Tennessee, then got boat raced in the second half. We didn't show up for Mizzou or TAM games... App State and UNC were jokes. Going into year FIVE, we have to stop making excuses why a coach isn't successful. It's his job to win and win now. He's getting paid $4 million to do it. (We paid a $1m/per win last year... let that sink in)
I hope he gets it turned around. He has all the resources to be successful here. He's recruited better over the last two years, filling some needed positions, but at the end of the day it's about W's and L's... and as a coach he is barely over .500 I think that shows a whole lot more than surface level correct?

 

[Goose cock]

Muschamp was a known terrible coach when tanner interviewed him. The whole world knew.

 

[stormtrooper2001]

Surface level? You are what your record says you are. 26-25 at SC 28-21 at Florid (54-46 Overall.) . I'll answer several of your arguments that you make in this post. Injuries happen at every school. They seem to follow Muschamp/Dillman. We lost Bentley last year, and ended up playing RH. I ask this... Why wasn't another QB ready to go prior to having to play a true freshman? Could we have used the bowl game during the blowout to Virginia play someone else who would've gained some type of experience? But WM didn't make any changes. Last year, Bentley might have gave us maybe one more win... a stretch would have been two. (App St. and the other is unknown). Yes we beat Georgia (I'll take it!), wasn't because of us being dominant as much as it was Georgia being anemic on offense.
Your argument is flawed by giving poor games by Spurrier and Dabo and trying to compare them to overall seasons that Muschamp has had as a coach in the SEC. The facts are simple and not just surface level... he's now beaten only 2 ranked teams since he's been at Carolina. (Georgia last year and Tennessee when they were ranked #23 a few years back). He's 1-6 against the ACC beat NC State in 2017.
We play in the SEC, the schedule isn't ever going to get easier in the league. Even taking away Clemson, we still are going to face the same division opponents each year as well as TAM, add in another west opponent, and at this time under Muschamp, none are gimmes in the conference.
You mention competing against Florida going into the fourth... Muschamp's team lost focus and lost. We were beating Tennessee, then got boat raced in the second half. We didn't show up for Mizzou or TAM games... App State and UNC were jokes. Going into year FIVE, we have to stop making excuses why a coach isn't successful. It's his job to win and win now. He's getting paid $4 million to do it. (We paid a $1m/per win last year... let that sink in)
I hope he gets it turned around. He has all the resources to be successful here. He's recruited better over the last two years, filling some needed positions, but at the end of the day it's about W's and L's... and as a coach he is barely over .500 I think that shows a whole lot more than surface level correct?

No to make a better point you would need to go deeper but I don't think you or I can considering what we know as fans. The administration knows things we don't. It might help or hurt him.

Also here are small points relative to the Big Picture but it's worth noting: 1) We beat Georgia, They Didn't beat themselves. We physically manhandled them that day up front. 2) I have given you evidence of not only poor games but Poor Season with Spurrier and Dabo in previous posts.

Again, I am not saying he's going to take us to Elite Levels; however I am putting up evidence in his defense for the purpose of discussion. There is a big difference. The question WHO THE HELL DO WE GET? We don't have the 'Pickens like LSU or Bama? Everyone was on the Iowa State coach bandwagon and fell off when he lost to Louisiana. Former App State coaches? Maybe they would be good but maybe not?

 

[world famous 3rd base hecklers]

I can think of HC who turn around schools after losing the first 6, 8 10 years....

Richard Bell
Sparky Woods
Brad Scott
Will Muschamp

 

[Gradstudent]

I think someone already said Kirk Ferentz, he had a 7 yr gap when in the NFL but close

Im not saying Muschamp will win games or is Kirk, but this guy lost 4 out of first 6 HC years with his 2 winning years not so impressive

Just trying to answer the initial question

1990 Maine 3-8
1991 Maine 3-8
1992 Maine 6-5
1999 Iowa 1-10
2000 Iowa 3-9
2001 Iowa 7-5
2002 Iowa 11-2

 

[BattleshipTexas]

Muschamp was a known terrible coach when tanner interviewed him. The whole world knew.

Actually he is quite respected as a defensive coach. He just hasn't been successful as a Head Coach. It is a different skill set. The number of defensive coaches you can say that of is very long: Dave Wannstedt, Dave Campo, Wade Phillips, Buddy Ryan, Dom Capers, Rod Marinelli, Ron Zook and many others.

 

[jonesz21]

Willie Varner won 4 state championships in girls bb, 2 in baseball, and 10 in football at Woodruff high. Maybe muschamp would be better at basketball??

 

[king ward]

I do think if we move on from Muschamp we are in good shape just like Florida was when he left. He has done just as good of a job as Spurrier here bringing in talent but I don’t know why he can’t build a staff. I don’t know if it’s poor evaluation on guys ability, overvaluing some aspects while undervaluing others or just simply poor ability to manage their abilities.

If we brought in another HC with the right staff I believe the results would be very different. Muschamp certainly seems like his peak is as a DC and there is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone who is good at what they do as a coach can succeed at the next tier. Some guys are great position coaches and that’s it.

It will require an exceptional coach to do what it takes to make us a competitive fixture in the SEC. I mean exceptional. Places like Florida will always have an innate advantage over South Carolina at the front end of any respective regime changes. This situation is hard to elevate.

 

[gamecock stock]

Just how good of a DC was Muschamp? He coached some under Saban, who I suspect runs his own defense, even as a Head Coach. At Texas, he had an abundance of talent to work with. Did he have a great year on defense at Auburn before we hired him? He has yet to prove he is Head Coaching material.

When Muschamp was hired here, he said, "if you can't recruit, you can't coach here". I suspect that his hires were based on recruiting ability rather than coaching ability. Hopefully, the new hires have coaching chops. I believe he did hire a quality S&C I believe Bobo is a quality hire. Rod Wilson coached on a Super Bowl champion. Rocker has the experience. Bobo likes Cox. I believe Des Kitchings has a good background. If we have a mediocre season, someone in the Administration will have to wise up.

 

[atljo#]

Probably the best example I can think of is Frank Beamer. He inherited a disaster at Va Tech. In his 6th year they went 2-8-1. Luckily, things took off for him the next year.

He did have the fact that he played at Virginia Tech and they were transitioning to the Big East during that time. He did have some success at Murray State prior.

Now I get what you’re saying and for the most part it doesn’t go well....

Agree with Beamer and the heat was on from VT fans.

 

[Goose cock]

Actually he is quite respected as a defensive coach. He just hasn't been successful as a Head Coach. It is a different skill set. The number of defensive coaches you can say that of is very long: Dave Wannstedt, Dave Campo, Wade Phillips, Buddy Ryan, Dom Capers, Rod Marinelli, Ron Zook and many others.

did you see his tenure at auburn? His defense was absolutely crappy there. His defense has been crappy here and he has had talent.

 

[BattleshipTexas]

did you see his tenure at auburn? His defense was absolutely crappy there. His defense has been crappy here and he has had talent.

In Texas, he coached defense in 2009 and we had the No. 3 defense in the entire country giving up 2.2 yards per rush and had a consensus All American in Earl Thomas. He didn't get hired away from Texas by a power like Florida for having bad defenses.

Texas hired him away from Auburn after the 2007 season where he was a Broyles award finalist and had a defense with Pat Sims, Quentin Groves, Ryan Shoemaker and Patrick Lee, all either first or second team SEC.

 

[SOSUSC]

thats a fair point; however there’s another counter against that he did Win 11 games one season there without a great QB. Also he dropped off 2 seasons. Meyer was 8-5 and 9-3 the years he didn’t have Tebow. Sure Muschamp was 4-6 a year at Florida. Difference was the QB. Also how did the uncontrollable play into it like injuries? Maybe he had more? Maybe he had less than Meyer? Florida was recruiting in state against then National Power Florida State. When Meyer was there Florida State was mediocre. It takes time to develop as a head coach as it’s entirely different skill set than assistant. The question is has he learned? He has been addressing the QB issue superbly. Also he has garnered more experience from his time at Florida and he has mellowed out to become more of a CEO instead of coordinator coach. He took us from 3-9 to 6-7 in 1st year with a depleted roster. Then 9-4 with aNew Year’s Day bowl win vs Michigan. Last two have been tough but we have also been
Snake bit with injuries (Deebo, Bentley, 3/4 of our starting D in 2018) more relative to other teams. There’s a whole lot more to analyze under the surface before you give fair appraisal.

Are you defending Muschamp? Just a simple question.

 

[SOSUSC]

By the time Nick Saban turned 50 his total HC record was 43-24-1 against the MAC and Big10 Competition ...here was his history.... Toledo 9-2... 4 years as Defensive Coordinator at Cleveland Browns.. Michigan State 6-5-1 , 6-6 , 7-5, 6-6, 9-2

Will Muschamp is 49..... His HC record is 54-46 and 100% against SEC Competition He has experience as a Defensive Coordinator at a 2 National Championship programs (Texas and LSU) and Top Defenses at Auburn. He also has 2 years experience as NFL asst coach.

There are lots of variables that affect records. Also our in-state power happens to become the National Elite Power (tough to recruit against)

Saban started really taking off at LSU. His first year at LSU was 8-4. LSU recruits against no one in state and that talent helped propel Saban and give him momentum. Saban got to Bama and with all of that tradition helped put him in a position to really succeed.

We have to look at ourselves HONESTLY. We don't have the LSU and BAMA tradition that helped Saban. Will Muschamp has recruited especially well here and for what he was blasted for he has succeeded in a big way- and that's recruiting QBs. He was left with an empty cupboard and his 1 month of extraordinary recruiting can't be overlooked in 2015-2016. He really has done a lot of good things here as well as helped push forward the Doty Center. He's honest and past players love em. I'm not giving up on him. His gig is tougher than any of you would have the balls to do. He's building a program not a team and I believe he is doing it the right way. It was decades or poor leadership that left us in this position and it's not an overnight fix. It even took Spurrier 6 years before he won the east and 7 before a 10 win season. A big part of that was getting a Good QB and a 5 star RB and DL. We just got the QBs and a 5 star RB and now 2 DL. Ya'll are going to have to trust the process and be patient.

Muschamp cannot wipe Saban's shoes. Don't even compare WM with Spurrier.

Yes, there are lots of variables that affect records, but the biggest variable is the Coach. As a HC Muschamp stinks, and Tanner is obviously not great at spotting talent. See Chad. RT could not even make a proper baseball hire.

Muschamp's track record as a HC - at UF and USC is downright disrespectful. His offenses have stalled. This is a HC who lost to App State and UNC (that played its first game under a new coach with a new QB). In his 9 win season here he eked out wins. Take La Tech - that was a last minute fluke. He beat a flailing UT and falling UF. He just got lucky. UF said bye to him quite fast and our clueless AD after a bungled search had to settle for WM. RT got taken to the woodshed by WM and Kirby's agent.

We differ in our assessment of WM. You are on record stormtrooper that he is building a program and not a team. I call clueless on your statement. Drink a dose of reality. I say you need to be able to understand what HC talent is all about. How clueless is this!!!

I did not like the hire when it was announced and I have not seen anything to change my mind. I don't believe he is even a good DC. A good coach takes average talent and makes it look good. Muschamp will make 5 stars look like no stars. Pity the kids who play for him.