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At some point you have to deal with FACTS and stop talking about things and actually do something.

uscusc1987

Active Member
May 30, 2008
1,320
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Do I have the solutions? No. Maybe some other people have some ideas.
First, when looking at the ENTIRE USC Athletic Department things aren't a disaster. On a scale of A to F it's probably a C to C+. The women's basketball program is a national power. The men's baseball team has been a national power and trending in the right direction. However, the two biggest sports mens football and basketball need significant change. Yes, in the past 5 years we've seen some success. A final 4 in basketball and some winning seasons at football. However, I think everyone agrees both programs should be better. Hopefully Beamer is the answer and improves the football program. All this BS with Frank Martin and Darla Moore is ridiculous. Someone or group of individuals that have the clout need to step up and push for change. The question is what change is going to fix things? Is the problem the BOT? Is the problem Tanner? Is the problem fans keep filling the stadium or arena and paying money no matter the results? I understand it's probably a combination of these things. However, what's the biggest one or two changes that need to take place?
 

uscg1984

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2006
5,976
7,158
113
SW Montana
Ultimately, I think the problem is that the folks in charge of the university don't think there's a problem. And who can blame them? They have always had plenty of customers lining up to buy their athletic and academic products. According to the university's website, total cost to attend for state residents living on campus this year is $33,401. For non-residents, that number is $54,648. Fall undergrad enrollment this year was about 27,500, which I believe is the most ever.

Personally, I question whether an undergrad degree from Carolina is worth $134,000, but I'm pretty darned sure it's not worth $219,000. But it doesn't really matter what I think because they have PLENTY of customers. For a university that seems to shoot itself in the foot all the time, business is pretty good.
 

CockofEarle

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 1999
60,375
4,494
113
Greenville, SC
Do I have the solutions? No. Maybe some other people have some ideas.
First, when looking at the ENTIRE USC Athletic Department things aren't a disaster. On a scale of A to F it's probably a C to C+. The women's basketball program is a national power. The men's baseball team has been a national power and trending in the right direction. However, the two biggest sports mens football and basketball need significant change. Yes, in the past 5 years we've seen some success. A final 4 in basketball and some winning seasons at football. However, I think everyone agrees both programs should be better. Hopefully Beamer is the answer and improves the football program. All this BS with Frank Martin and Darla Moore is ridiculous. Someone or group of individuals that have the clout need to step up and push for change. The question is what change is going to fix things? Is the problem the BOT? Is the problem Tanner? Is the problem fans keep filling the stadium or arena and paying money no matter the results? I understand it's probably a combination of these things. However, what's the biggest one or two changes that need to take place?

Joe, is this you?
 

Gamecock80SC

Member
Feb 18, 2021
133
150
43
I don’t keep up with baseball. So I didn’t realize that we are currently a National Power House. How cool! But I do keep up with football and don’t recall any winning seasons since like 2013.
 

jthunder

Member
Mar 11, 2005
145
166
43
I don’t keep up with baseball. So I didn’t realize that we are currently a National Power House. How cool! But I do keep up with football and don’t recall any winning seasons since like 2013.

Muschamp went 6-6, 8-4, and 7-5 his first three regular seasons before the wheels came off...
 

world famous 3rd base hecklers

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2011
28,584
11,700
113
Do I have the solutions? No. Maybe some other people have some ideas.
First, when looking at the ENTIRE USC Athletic Department things aren't a disaster. On a scale of A to F it's probably a C to C+. The women's basketball program is a national power. The men's baseball team has been a national power and trending in the right direction. However, the two biggest sports mens football and basketball need significant change. Yes, in the past 5 years we've seen some success. A final 4 in basketball and some winning seasons at football. However, I think everyone agrees both programs should be better. Hopefully Beamer is the answer and improves the football program. All this BS with Frank Martin and Darla Moore is ridiculous. Someone or group of individuals that have the clout need to step up and push for change. The question is what change is going to fix things? Is the problem the BOT? Is the problem Tanner? Is the problem fans keep filling the stadium or arena and paying money no matter the results? I understand it's probably a combination of these things. However, what's the biggest one or two changes that need to take place?

I think the hire of Shane Beamer was a good move. Believe me, Tanner could do worse and I'm glad former USC players who played under Beamer spoke up. Look no further, when Beamer left in 2010 and Jr took over Beamers duties with recruiting, the wheels came off and went down hill from there. We didn't see the impact until after the 2013 season....
 

usccocksfan

Member
Feb 5, 2003
40
80
18
Do I have the solutions? No. Maybe some other people have some ideas.
First, when looking at the ENTIRE USC Athletic Department things aren't a disaster. On a scale of A to F it's probably a C to C+. The women's basketball program is a national power. The men's baseball team has been a national power and trending in the right direction. However, the two biggest sports mens football and basketball need significant change. Yes, in the past 5 years we've seen some success. A final 4 in basketball and some winning seasons at football. However, I think everyone agrees both programs should be better. Hopefully Beamer is the answer and improves the football program. All this BS with Frank Martin and Darla Moore is ridiculous. Someone or group of individuals that have the clout need to step up and push for change. The question is what change is going to fix things? Is the problem the BOT? Is the problem Tanner? Is the problem fans keep filling the stadium or arena and paying money no matter the results? I understand it's probably a combination of these things. However, what's the biggest one or two changes that need to take place?
I like where you’re heading. I would love to form an independent group to look into the BOT and university leadership more. It all starts at the top, and it would take a large group of people/donors/alumns to drive the change you refer to.

The biggest change we need is to remove the Governor, and politics, from our BOT.
 

JasonScottinSC

Active Member
Jul 1, 2010
1,199
953
113
First of all... the Darla Moore thing has nothing to do with Athletics.
I do believe one of USC's biggest problems is with its Board. Too many of those folks try to meddle in Athletics and leak things to the press that they shouldn't. Even if you don't like a coach, you don't undercut them by leaking things just you can try to get rid of him. The board is also responsible for forcing Ray to give Frank an extension during the Final Four run even when it wasn't time to do that yet. Too many board members think that because they're fans, they know more about how to run an athletics dept than people who live in that world. (Kind of like all of us on this forum, right?).

Overall, before COVID, the Athletics Dept as a whole has been in great shape financially and it's been reported that USC is one of only about 22 schools nationally whose overall Athletics Dept. operates in the black every year. That's good on Ray's part.

Yes, for the most part, all the sports that most people on this board don't care about are doing great (tennis, golf, softball teams are in the NCAA every year and ranked, volleyball has had resurgence in last 3 years with the coach that Ray hired etc).....

So if we're only talking about "the big 4" sports (Football, Baseball, men and women's basketball), then here we go:
1) Football - Muschamp was a C+ hire but was the best that we could get after Smart left USC at the altar. The first few years, it looked like a good hire and then it fell apart, so he's gone. Beamer is a nice hire and is a bit outside the box, which is probably what USC needed. Fans don't want to face the truth about USC football though, and that is that in 100+ years of football, the program's overall record is barely over. 500. Spurrier was the greatest we ever had and probably ever will have. Can the program get to a point where it wins 7-8 games most years with occasional years where they contend for SEC? Sure. BUT, USC will never be able to outspend, FL, GA, Texas A&M, AL, AU, LSU among others and will never consistently have the in-state talent base to be a perennial contender.
2) Women's basketball - program is fine as long as Staley is here, and Ray kept her from taking a trip to Ohio State when that job opened a few years ago.
3) Men's basketball - tricky because Frank did take program to Final Four and he does have more winning seasons in SEC play than any USC MBB coach since USC joined the league..... but the last 2 years have sucked. Frank has tried to leave a couple of times for places like Cincinnati and UCONN and I truly believe Ray was going to figure out a way to let him go this year, but then the board stepped in..... again. I do think Frank can do OK here, but I don't think he really wants to be here long term based on his consistent sniffing around for other jobs over the years.
4) Baseball: Ray is the best coach we ever had for the sport. Replacing him was like trying to replace Pat Summitt at TN: anything less than a national championship or a trip to Omaha will seem like a bad year. The truth is, college baseball may be one of the most difficult sports to maintain that high level due to scholarship limitations which allows really good players to go to mid-majors. Hiring Holbrook was absolutely the right hire at the time of his hiring. He was known as a great recruiter and other schools in our own league wanted him as their head coach. In the end, it didn't work out, and he's was let go, but it was still the right hire when he was hired. Kingston seemed like a good hire based on what the college baseball writers were saying and how he was able to win at places without many resources. He did not inherit a championship program, and I think he is building something now. The problem is, SEC baseball is ridiculous from top to bottom (more-so than football in my opinion), so it's not quite as easy to get to the top, but the program appears to be in a good shape.

Football is the biggest money maker obviously, but based on all of the above, I think the program is at B level right now.
 
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NMB Dave

Member
Feb 21, 2017
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Men’s basketball and Men’s soccer are in bad shape. Both programs are capable of being great but both need new coaches (which of course soccer will now get with Berson’s retirement). I truly believe coaching changes are the solution for those 2 programs. We have the facilities, fan base, and have in the past had great talent. There’s no reason we shouldn’t be able to do that again. They just need the right administration.

Football has its issues, but I think Beamer is the right guy for us at this time. The man loves the university and the program, and he is creating a culture and has had success recruiting before. Obviously he’s got to win, but he’s laying a good foundation.

Every other program is successful sans maybe women’s cross country. Truly. Every other team is consistently competing for championships at the conference and national level.

Ray Tanner has won a lot of battles as AD. Facility upgrades have been phenomenal. Ray has kept Dawn around. That’s a big deal.

I blame the BOT for most of USC’s problems. The athletic administration can do a lot better at a lot of things, but the Board is the keeper of the purse. The board approves hires, contracts, and money. Changes need to happen at the top level.
 

BigWillieCock

Active Member
Gold Member
Sep 14, 2007
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Men’s basketball and Men’s soccer are in bad shape. Both programs are capable of being great but both need new coaches (which of course soccer will now get with Berson’s retirement). I truly believe coaching changes are the solution for those 2 programs. We have the facilities, fan base, and have in the past had great talent. There’s no reason we shouldn’t be able to do that again. They just need the right administration.

Football has its issues, but I think Beamer is the right guy for us at this time. The man loves the university and the program, and he is creating a culture and has had success recruiting before. Obviously he’s got to win, but he’s laying a good foundation.

Every other program is successful sans maybe women’s cross country. Truly. Every other team is consistently competing for championships at the conference and national level.

Ray Tanner has won a lot of battles as AD. Facility upgrades have been phenomenal. Ray has kept Dawn around. That’s a big deal.

I blame the BOT for most of USC’s problems. The athletic administration can do a lot better at a lot of things, but the Board is the keeper of the purse. The board approves hires, contracts, and money. Changes need to happen at the top level.
It’s really easy. STOP BUYING TICKETS.

when the money dries up, changes will happen.
 
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NMB Dave

Member
Feb 21, 2017
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It’s really easy. STOP BUYING TICKETS.

when the money dries up, changes will happen.
Ticket sales account for only about 15% of revenue. In recent years that’s about $19 million out of $123 million.

It’s not to say that they wouldn’t notice if they made a few million less, but it wouldn’t be catastrophic either.

An empty stadium should send a message to administrators, but it doesn’t mean it will be big enough for them to change
 
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BigWillieCock

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Sep 14, 2007
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Ticket sales account for only about 15% of revenue. In recent years that’s about $19 million out of $123 million.

It’s not to say that they wouldn’t notice if they made a few million less, but it wouldn’t be catastrophic either.

An empty stadium should send a message to administrators, but it doesn’t mean it will be big enough for them to change
Fair point. As a business owner 15% would make me notice. It certainly changes my budget. It’d certainly impact salaries.
 
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Gamecock Lifer

Well-Known Member
Oct 8, 2008
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I don’t keep up with baseball. So I didn’t realize that we are currently a National Power House. How cool! But I do keep up with football and don’t recall any winning seasons since like 2013.
Then.. you don’t keep up with football either apparently...
 

Gamecock Lifer

Well-Known Member
Oct 8, 2008
10,017
6,836
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It’s really easy. STOP BUYING TICKETS.

when the money dries up, changes will happen.
Yeah- that should work. We were too poor to pay a $6MM buy out this year. The best way to fix that is to further bankrupt the athletic department... 🤔
 

Legendary Cock

Well-Known Member
Aug 6, 2014
5,534
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Colorado
Yeah- that should work. We were too poor to pay a $6MM buy out this year. The best way to fix that is to further bankrupt the athletic department... 🤔
Withholding money and fan support is literally the only voice the average fan has. If everyone just kept donating and showing up to games (in normal times) no matter how crappy the product is, what incentive would our admin ever have to make a change?
 

Gamecock Lifer

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Oct 8, 2008
10,017
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Withholding money and fan support is literally the only voice the average fan has. If everyone just kept donating and showing up to games (in normal times) no matter how crappy the product is, what incentive would our admin ever have to make a change?
And yet we have always had good attendance to FB games but still tend to make a change about every five years or so. It is almost like it does not matter at all, and they make changes based off of other factors...
 

Legendary Cock

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Aug 6, 2014
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Colorado
And yet we have always had good attendance to FB games but still tend to make a change about every five years or so. It is almost like it does not matter at all, and they make changes based off of other factors...
Muschamp was the first football coach we fired in 21 years. And I remember going to games at the end of the Sparky and Brad eras where there were a lot of empty seats (besides the Clemson games.)

Fans stayed away in droves to make a point that they were unhappy with Darrin Horn -- and probably will next year as well.

By the end of the Holbroke era, the crowds were less than the Covid crowds we're seeing today. Even Tommy Moody (who still thinks highly of Holbroke) said on air that we had lost home field advantage under him.

Want more? Look at Florida St. Their boosters organized a massive boycott of the Miami game to force a change. And they got it.
 

Gamecock Lifer

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Oct 8, 2008
10,017
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Muschamp was the first football coach we fired in 21 years. And I remember going to games at the end of the Sparky and Brad eras where there were a lot of empty seats (besides the Clemson games.)

Fans stayed away in droves to make a point that they were unhappy with Darrin Horn -- and probably will next year as well.

By the end of the Holbroke era, the crowds were less than the Covid crowds we're seeing today. Even Tommy Moody (who still thinks highly of Holbroke) said on air that we had lost home field advantage under him.

Want more? Look at Florida St. Their boosters organized a massive boycott of the Miami game to force a change. And they got it.
None of that addresses what I said. We have always had packed stadiums in football and still made changes when needed. I never made a distinction about “fired” vs “made a change” and that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand- but If you really think Scott or Woods.. Were not fired you are a moron and do not understand how those things work. I was there at the end of the Brad Scott era and the stadiums were still full- we had top 25 attendance over his last year and Lou’s first when we were a combined 1-21. Fans think the revenue generated from ticket sales 1- is some primary driver of revenue. It is not. TV money is. And 2- that if “I quit going I am making my voice heard”- wrong again. They barely notice when attendance is down a bit and short of some organized walkout where we get 100% of fans to stop going- which will never come close to happening- they never will notice. Admin makes changes when the big donors and BOT say it is time. They do not care about “us” at all.

As fans- go when you want to go. It should be about fun and enjoyment, not trying to make some statement Because they don’t care about us. If you like going to sporting events- GO! Don’t dilute yourself to think that the AD is crying ib his hands wondering where you are if you don’t attend or that it will cause some action to be taken regarding a coaching change or that they give a rip if you did not go because you feel there was some “political statement” made by a team that got your panties in a wad! That is lunacy... Nobody notices, nobody cares and if any of you enjoy sports but stopped going to games for any of those reasons then you are only hurting yourself.
 

SOSUSC

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Gold Member
Jan 5, 2006
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Muschamp was the first football coach we fired in 21 years. And I remember going to games at the end of the Sparky and Brad eras where there were a lot of empty seats (besides the Clemson games.)

Fans stayed away in droves to make a point that they were unhappy with Darrin Horn -- and probably will next year as well.

By the end of the Holbroke era, the crowds were less than the Covid crowds we're seeing today. Even Tommy Moody (who still thinks highly of Holbroke) said on air that we had lost home field advantage under him.

Want more? Look at Florida St. Their boosters organized a massive boycott of the Miami game to force a change. And they got it.
Yes. Fans staying away is a signal that an Administration cannot ignore.
 
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67gamecock

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Oct 3, 2000
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Lexington, SC
Ultimately, I think the problem is that the folks in charge of the university don't think there's a problem. And who can blame them? They have always had plenty of customers lining up to buy their athletic and academic products. According to the university's website, total cost to attend for state residents living on campus this year is $33,401. For non-residents, that number is $54,648. Fall undergrad enrollment this year was about 27,500, which I believe is the most ever.

Personally, I question whether an undergrad degree from Carolina is worth $134,000, but I'm pretty darned sure it's not worth $219,000. But it doesn't really matter what I think because they have PLENTY of customers. For a university that seems to shoot itself in the foot all the time, business is pretty good.


Most large state universities frequently shoot themselves in foot, ass, etc. It's just that some are better at keeping matters close to their vests rather than hang their shitty laundry on their FRONT LAWNS!
 

SOSUSC

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Jan 5, 2006
7,093
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Do I have the solutions? No. Maybe some other people have some ideas.
First, when looking at the ENTIRE USC Athletic Department things aren't a disaster. On a scale of A to F it's probably a C to C+. The women's basketball program is a national power. The men's baseball team has been a national power and trending in the right direction. However, the two biggest sports mens football and basketball need significant change. Yes, in the past 5 years we've seen some success. A final 4 in basketball and some winning seasons at football. However, I think everyone agrees both programs should be better. Hopefully Beamer is the answer and improves the football program. All this BS with Frank Martin and Darla Moore is ridiculous. Someone or group of individuals that have the clout need to step up and push for change. The question is what change is going to fix things? Is the problem the BOT? Is the problem Tanner? Is the problem fans keep filling the stadium or arena and paying money no matter the results? I understand it's probably a combination of these things. However, what's the biggest one or two changes that need to take place?

The cause of the issues that plague USC mens sports falls on the shoulders of the AD. The BOT does not, in the end, make the hire.

We should have been alert when Spurrier was in his last 11 game winning season and cartainly in the year after that. The signals of a decline were there. The Champ hire should never have happened. In my books, the Beamer hire is again very questionable, but I hope I am wrong. I would be delighted to see Beamer work out. I think Beamer will relate well to this generation of athletes, but can he manage and coach?

The only shining star among the top 4 revenue sports is Dawn, She not only relates well to her players, but is also understanding of the societal changes that are happening now. She is the right coach at the right time. I foresee her being this way into the future.

Frank coaching style is for a bygone era. It is the era of the Bobby Knights etc. That style will never work now, particularly with the transfer portal that every program faces. Every year it is a "young" team because of attrition. Coaches have to evolve in their coaching styles. There is need for acoach who can relate to players, coach, and make the transfer portal work.

Kingston, to me, is a bit of an enigma. I think he can be good in spurts, but will mostly middle. We have to wait and see.
 
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USC2USC

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Aug 6, 2001
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The cause of the issues that plague USC mens sports falls on the shoulders of the AD. The BOT does not, in the end, make the hire.

We should have been alert when Spurrier was in his last 11 game winning season and cartainly in the year after that. The signals of a decline were there. The Champ hire should never have happened. In my books, the Beamer hire is again very questionable, but I hope I am wrong. I would be delighted to see Beamer work out. I think Beamer will relate well to this generation of athletes, but can he manage and coach?

The only shining star among the top 4 revenue sports is Dawn, She not only relates well to her players, but is also understanding of the societal changes that are happening now. She is the right coach at the right time. I foresee her being this way into the future.

Frank coaching style is for a bygone era. It is the era of the Bobby Knights etc. That style will never work now, particularly with the transfer portal that every program faces. Every year it is a "young" team because of attrition. Coaches have to evolve in their coaching styles. There is need for acoach who can relate to players, coach, and make the transfer portal work.

Kingston, to me, is a bit of an enigma. I think he can be good in spurts, but will mostly middle. We have to wait and see.

Good post and spot on.
 
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Legendary Cock

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Aug 6, 2014
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None of that addresses what I said. We have always had packed stadiums in football and still made changes when needed. I never made a distinction about “fired” vs “made a change” and that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand- but If you really think Scott or Woods.. Were not fired you are a moron and do not understand how those things work. I was there at the end of the Brad Scott era and the stadiums were still full- we had top 25 attendance over his last year and Lou’s first when we were a combined 1-21. Fans think the revenue generated from ticket sales 1- is some primary driver of revenue. It is not. TV money is. And 2- that if “I quit going I am making my voice heard”- wrong again. They barely notice when attendance is down a bit and short of some organized walkout where we get 100% of fans to stop going- which will never come close to happening- they never will notice. Admin makes changes when the big donors and BOT say it is time. They do not care about “us” at all.

As fans- go when you want to go. It should be about fun and enjoyment, not trying to make some statement Because they don’t care about us. If you like going to sporting events- GO! Don’t dilute yourself to think that the AD is crying ib his hands wondering where you are if you don’t attend or that it will cause some action to be taken regarding a coaching change or that they give a rip if you did not go because you feel there was some “political statement” made by a team that got your panties in a wad! That is lunacy... Nobody notices, nobody cares and if any of you enjoy sports but stopped going to games for any of those reasons then you are only hurting yourself.
SMH. Yes, I did address it. And once again like in so many other threads, you resort to petty name-calling and insults when someone disagrees with you. So I'll ask again, are you bipolar? Because your childish insults would seem to indicate a medical reason for such ridiculous outbursts from a grown man.
 
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Gamecock Lifer

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Oct 8, 2008
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SMH. Yes, I did address it. And once again like in so many other threads, you resort to petty name-calling and insults when someone disagrees with you. So I'll ask again, are you bipolar? Because your childish insults would seem to indicate a medical reason for such ridiculous outbursts from a grown man.
I did no such thing. I said IF you believe scott and Woods were not fired... As in, if someone does not understand the way things work they are stupid. If you are assigning yourself to that group, that is on you... You called me childish and bipolar directly though because I do not agree with YOU- the hypocrisy of which is not lost on me... Further deviating from the point at hand also... Like me or not, IDGAF. You don’t know me and I don’t know you.

I am saying the administration is hurting for money and that is why we did not make a change- especially during a pandemic it does zero good to voice your displeasure by not attending games. If you like Gamecock sports and want to go- GO when you can. Do not dilute yourself to think it will be some driving force for change if you do not. Otherwise you are only hurting yourself and withholding money- either through not giving normal donations or not paying for tickets- is certainly not helping our administration during a budget crisis caused by this pandemic. That thought process lacks reason. The pittance they collect from the average fan is not really enough to move the needle at all, but if we want to dig out of this budget crunch, be able to afford buyouts, and avoid potentially shutting down some sports due to it- we damn well better do what we can to help the athletic department. Thise who can give big should.
 
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Legendary Cock

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Aug 6, 2014
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Colorado
I did no such thing. I said IF you believe scott and Woods were not fired... As in, if someone does not understand the way things work they are stupid. If you are assigning yourself to that group, that is on you... You called me childish and bipolar directly though because I do not agree with YOU- the hypocrisy of which is not lost on me... Further deviating from the point at hand also... Like me or not, IDGAF. You don’t know me and I don’t know you.

I am saying the administration is hurting for money and that is why we did not make a change- especially during a pandemic it does zero good to voice your displeasure by not attending games. If you like Gamecock sports and want to go- GO when you can. Do not dilute yourself to think it will be some driving force for change if you do not. Otherwise you are only hurting yourself and withholding money- either through not giving normal donations or not paying for tickets- is certainly not helping our administration during a budget crisis caused by this pandemic. That thought process lacks reason. The pittance they collect from the average fan is not really enough to move the needle at all, but if we want to dig out of this budget crunch, be able to afford buyouts, and avoid potentially shutting down some sports due to it- we damn well better do what we can to help the athletic department. Thise who can give big should.
I actually only asked you IF you were. Because I'm trying to understand why you almost ALWAYS have to resort to insults and name-calling which, yes, is very childish.

It's sometimes seems like you sit around waiting for someone to either disagree with you or state an opinion that differs from your own and then lash out and attack them in your typical, filibustering essays.

Would it really hurt to try something like, "I can't say I agree with that, and here's why..."? It's pretty easy and it don't cost nuthin'.
 
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