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Doubting Frank Martin

Cocky4SC

Cocky4SC

Active Member
Dec 2, 2014
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Spartanburg SC
For those who doubt his ability to coach....
He wasn't the one shooting right over 24%
Players have to execute their shots.
Help is one the way. I would be upset with Frank
If the guys weren't displaying effort or there was a lack of coaching.
Many on here find a way to bring up bringing in
Greg Marshall or another coach who could get the job done,
But the mess that Frank inherited will not be fixed over night.

Simply put... Bashing the program after every
Loss will not fix anything.
2016 should be a NIT year. 2017 should be NCAA tournament or bust.
 
Where did you come from.. to much reasoning for some on this board, be careful you may confuse many with your thoughts
 
Originally posted by Cocky4SC:
For those who doubt his ability to coach....
He wasn't the one shooting right over 24%
Players have to execute their shots.
Help is one the way. I would be upset with Frank
If the guys weren't displaying effort or there was a lack of coaching.
Many on here find a way to bring up bringing in
Greg Marshall or another coach who could get the job done,
But the mess that Frank inherited will not be fixed over night.

Simply put... Bashing the program after every
Loss will not fix anything.
2016 should be a NIT year. 2017 should be NCAA tournament or bust.
Click to expand...
Frank, is that you? How could anybody doubt you coach? Your record speaks for itself.
 
you better hope Martin doesn't pack his bags and leave...

without Martin, Dozier never signs, without Martin you never, ever have Woods considering SC
 
So in your opinion it's OK to trash the players...the players that FM brought in here...to defend the coach? IMO that's despicable. The kids are playing hard and should a lot of effort even in games they have no chance like yesterday. No one should bash the players...ever.

FM is the one getting paid to do a job and he is not getting it done. To think people won't discuss that or be critical of him is being unreasonable.
 
..yet the Dozier family was happy when their son signed to play for Martin... go figure
 
Originally posted by Bigger_Stronger_Faster:
So in your opinion it's OK to trash the players...the players that FM brought in here...to defend the coach? IMO that's despicable. The kids are playing hard and should a lot of effort even in games they have no chance like yesterday. No one should bash the players...ever.

FM is the one getting paid to do a job and he is not getting it done. To think people won't discuss that or be critical of him is being unreasonable.
Click to expand...
You are making stuff up! Where did anybody bash the players? Stating facts- that the players shot 24% from the field- is NOT Bashing players. If he had said something like... I don't know called them a bunch of losers or just said they sucked... That would be bashing them. Nobody has done that here, so please stop making stuff up.

All the OP said was that the coach has them playing hard, the kids are just missing shots and not scoring well enough to win many games.
 
I hate to be a killjoy, but you some of you need to temper your excitement about Seventh Woods. He's going to UNC.
 
I didn't bash the players. I wish nothing but the best for the guys but them not making shots is not Frank's fault. If you know anything about offensive sets, his offense is really good, look at how many open shots it creates. But unfortunately, our guys are struggling to make wide open shots. That isn't coaching...
 
Frank has never coached and won in rebuilding a team. He was a cheat in the high school ranks. At K-State he never won a conference title even after being handed the reins from Huggins and his #1 recruit class. Their talent alone made them win in the NCAAT.

If we wanted a coach to win with lesser talent and show what an actual talented coach can do, we would have gone with Gregg Marshall. Year 3 of FM and his star players regressed during the season and look no better than their freshman year.
 
Originally posted by AgnosticTrollCock:
Frank has never coached and won in rebuilding a team. He was a cheat in the high school ranks. At K-State he never won a conference title even after being handed the reins from Huggins and his #1 recruit class. Their talent alone made them win in the NCAAT.

If we wanted a coach to win with lesser talent and show what an actual talented coach can do, we would have gone with Gregg Marshall. Year 3 of FM and his star players regressed during the season and look no better than their freshman year.
Click to expand...
About as close as you get to Gregg Marshall is to move to Kansas .
roll.r191677.gif
 
Originally posted by pepsicock:

Originally posted by AgnosticTrollCock:
Frank has never coached and won in rebuilding a team. He was a cheat in the high school ranks. At K-State he never won a conference title even after being handed the reins from Huggins and his #1 recruit class. Their talent alone made them win in the NCAAT.

If we wanted a coach to win with lesser talent and show what an actual talented coach can do, we would have gone with Gregg Marshall. Year 3 of FM and his star players regressed during the season and look no better than their freshman year.
Click to expand...
About as close as you get to Gregg Marshall is to move to Kansas .
roll.r191677.gif
Click to expand...
We can watch Gregg Marshall on TV during March Madness, as he attempts to get to another Final Four. Maybe you and Frank can buy tickets together and attend in person.
roll.r191677.gif
 
Originally posted by Todd Lewis:

Originally posted by pepsicock:


Originally posted by AgnosticTrollCock:
Frank has never coached and won in rebuilding a team. He was a cheat in the high school ranks. At K-State he never won a conference title even after being handed the reins from Huggins and his #1 recruit class. Their talent alone made them win in the NCAAT.

If we wanted a coach to win with lesser talent and show what an actual talented coach can do, we would have gone with Gregg Marshall. Year 3 of FM and his star players regressed during the season and look no better than their freshman year.
Click to expand...
About as close as you get to Gregg Marshall is to move to Kansas .
roll.r191677.gif
Click to expand...
We can watch Gregg Marshall on TV during March Madness, as he attempts to get to another Final Four. Maybe you and Frank can buy tickets together and attend in person.
roll.r191677.gif
Click to expand...
you could join the Gregg Marshall fan club on the shocker forum . he might even send you a signed poster
 
His spread motion doesn't work with these players. They are tentative moving the ball, screening is soft and the guards don't make smart decisions. Guards can't shoot and aren't finishing at the rim. The whole thing is whack, but he keeps running the same sets. Even if the guard play was better, he's asking too much from his 4s and 5s to be quick with their movement and be strong offensive options to occupy the ineterior defenders and/or pull people to the elbow and wings.

I don't know what the fix is because they don't have the guard strength to go straight small, spread, although they try that sometimes. Guys can't shoot or finish. But going big at the 4 and 5 almost kills their ability to get the defense off balance, becuase those guys just aren't good enough at moving around, moving the ball or scoring facing the basket.

What Maritn is doing now is literally insane though. Change it up. Go more dribble drive and kick. Load one side and do some isolation dribble or post. Do some high post and see what you get. Screen more with the guards. At this point, I'd have Chatkevicius and Henry alternate posting at the low block and elbow and have them be the primary options and tell them to shoot as much as they want. If the double comes, hit a cutter or shooter. They are weak players in the guard driven motion, but try them as primary and get the two of them combined close to 20 shots a game.
 
Frank's offense got them over one hundred shots against Kentucky in their two meetings. Our guys hit less than thirty of their shots.
We could have played 7vs5 against them but if you can't make the shots nothing will work no matter if your head is Coach Wooden or Coach K.
 
^
This is not a knock on Martin-just simply the truth. None of Martin's teams have been known for offense.
 
Every coach we hired since Mc Guire could coach. Problem is, they couldn't recruit enough talent to be a top program. Frank so far has not done it either. It's a puzzle to me because we have wonderful facilities, great school, great fans and play in the best conference in America.
 
I'm behind Martin, but let's face it we will have the same team next year. And I don't see us improving all that much.
 
you are correct.. so all the people complaining have plenty of time left to do so. 2017 will be the year that determines whether we will compete at a high level or not.

So all the Martin haters have a lot of time to bitch... I can guarantee you Martin aint leaving. between now and then...unless he decides to move on... I don't think he will, but if he did, he'd have a power 5 conference head coach job as soon as he wanted it
 
I also don't think that we as a university are in any position to think we have arrived at a place where we can just go out and fire anybody at anytime. We were known by most if you recall as a coaching graveyard. I know this mostly referred to our football program, but I don't think it is wise to start getting that trend started in other sports. Saw the other day that people were ready to get rid of Holbrook also. We aren't at that level.
 
I also don't think that we as a university are in any position to think we have arrived at a place where we can just go out and fire anybody at anytime. We were known by most if you recall as a coaching graveyard. I know this mostly referred to our football program, but I don't think it is wise to start getting that trend started in other sports. Saw the other day that people were ready to get rid of Holbrook also. We aren't at that level.
 
Originally posted by Cocky4SC:
I also don't think that we as a university are in any position to think we have arrived at a place where we can just go out and fire anybody at anytime. We were known by most if you recall as a coaching graveyard. I know this mostly referred to our football program, but I don't think it is wise to start getting that trend started in other sports. Saw the other day that people were ready to get rid of Holbrook also. We aren't at that level.
Click to expand...
BS. We can get nearly anyone we want. We could have hired Bobby Knight instead we got Dave Odom. We've had three opportunities to get Gregg Marshall. We could have hired Bruce Pearl. Could have hired Tubby Smith or Mark Fox.

Just because Hyman was too stupid to hire a good coach doesn't mean we couldn't have gotten one.

By your same logic we should have held onto Brad Scott because we were a graveyard of coaches - instead we got Lou Holtz and Steve Spurrier.

Be realistic but don't settle for crap. (in anything).
 
did he not recruit every single one of the players he has.....i guess they could shoot lights out in high school and then went to pot when they got to college...youre right that he wasnt the one shooting right over 24%, but he sure as hell was the one that brought them here.....coaches have to evaluate talent......he should be held accountable for something
 
You honestly think we could have any coach we wanted?!? It is a nice thought but what dream world is this... What makes our job so lucrative to lure in a BIG coach? What if that coach didn't win immediately? Fire him also? What if we did that with Spurrier his first four years here? Ask Duke how that worked out by keeping coach K... Think they have won a few since his rough start... Give Martin time. This time two years from now will be different. If no improvement is made and tournament appearance imminent, then cut ties.
 
Originally posted by Cocky4SC:
You honestly think we could have any coach we wanted?!? It is a nice thought but what dream world is this... What makes our job so lucrative to lure in a BIG coach? What if that coach didn't win immediately? Fire him also? What if we did that with Spurrier his first four years here? Ask Duke how that worked out by keeping coach K... Think they have won a few since his rough start... Give Martin time. This time two years from now will be different. If no improvement is made and tournament appearance imminent, then cut ties.
Click to expand...
Nearly yes. We have money. We have fan support. We have low expectations. Since you brought up coach K...we hired Bill Foster (Coach Ks predecessor at Duke) bc we were the better job.

You do realize that Spurrier's first 4 years was the best 4 year period in school history vs Martin which thus far will have the worst 3 year period in school history. That argument is completely ludicrous.

For every coach K their are a lot more Darrin Horns and Brad Scotts giving a bad coach more time just means we will suck longer rather than fixing the problem.

BTW - I'm not saying Martin must go (I like him) but I really question if he will fix it and thus far I see little evidence to support he will except he is better than Horn. And four years ago there were plenty of people on here saying all Horn needed was more time.
 
Originally posted by uscfan1981:




Originally posted by Cocky4SC:
You honestly think we could have any coach we wanted?!? It is a nice thought but what dream world is this... What makes our job so lucrative to lure in a BIG coach? What if that coach didn't win immediately? Fire him also? What if we did that with Spurrier his first four years here? Ask Duke how that worked out by keeping coach K... Think they have won a few since his rough start... Give Martin time. This time two years from now will be different. If no improvement is made and tournament appearance imminent, then cut ties.
Click to expand...
Nearly yes. We have money. We have fan support. We have low expectations. Since you brought up coach K...we hired Bill Foster (Coach Ks predecessor at Duke) bc we were the better job.

You do realize that Spurrier's first 4 years was the best 4 year period in school history vs Martin which thus far will have the worst 3 year period in school history. That argument is completely ludicrous.

For every coach K their are a lot more Darrin Horns and Brad Scotts giving a bad coach more time just means we will suck longer rather than fixing the problem.

BTW - I'm not saying Martin must go (I like him) but I really question if he will fix it and thus far I see little evidence to support he will except he is better than Horn. And four years ago there were plenty of people on here saying all Horn needed was more time.
Click to expand...
you say you question whether he can "fix it"...news bulletin... its not like its been broken for a little while..... its been like this for 40 + years and a new coach for 3yrs isn't going to fix a 40 year problem.

if 2017 isn't good then fire him and try another one



This post was edited on 2/15 11:17 PM by bosoxcock
 
Originally posted by Cocky4SC:
For those who doubt his ability to coach....
He wasn't the one shooting right over 24%
Players have to execute their shots.
Help is one the way. I would be upset with Frank
If the guys weren't displaying effort or there was a lack of coaching.
Many on here find a way to bring up bringing in
Greg Marshall or another coach who could get the job done,
But the mess that Frank inherited will not be fixed over night.

Simply put... Bashing the program after every
Loss will not fix anything.
2016 should be a NIT year. 2017 should be NCAA tournament or bust.
Click to expand...
No Frank wasn't shooting the ball but he is the one that recruited and is coaching these guys. That raising he#@ and that blown up look on the sidelines is not working. Not saying fire him, but what ever he's doing is not working.
This post was edited on 2/16 7:16 AM by basses
 
Basses, I agree with the statement pertaining to the blowing up on the sidelines and screaming. I'm not a big supporter of this. With that being said, I have seen comments from players that they like playing for Martin because of his intensity. (I'm not sure if it is because they are a gluten for punishment or what).

Next year will be a full recruiting class for Martin (4 years worth). While they are still losing game after game, they are playing with more intensity, drive, passion than in the past.

I would love for us to turn the page and become an SEC contender over night/next year... this isn't going to happen that quickly. Our best teams in my lifetime were in the 90's!!! How did those teams do in the tournament? I still shake my head about Richmond Spiders!!!

All I'm saying is that we don't have a long glorious history of being dominant in basketball. Darlene Horne left us in a tough spot, give Martin some rope and let him pull us out of the ditch that has been dug for over forty years.
 
Year 1 -- Brought in 3 guys nobody wanted (Carrera, Chat, Kacinas) in a couple of weeks. Sucked.

Year 2 -- Ran off Horn's players. Brought in a bunch of players. Some were hits, some were misses. Got a transfer. He got hurt. Overall, sucked.

Year 3 -- Signed 4 guys. One's turned out OK, 2 have been hurt, 1 never enrolled. Kacinas, Chat, and Notice have turned out to be pleasant surprises considering basically no one wanted them. Currently sucking.

Going forward -- Martin started in the toilet. Then, he ran off 4 guys and started over. We were lower than the toilet. I guess we were in the sewer. To even win any games at all right now is an accomplishment. People bitching about firing Martin are wasting their breath. He will 100% get a 4th year and he will 99% get a 5th year. I'd even say it's about 95% he gets a sixth year. Give the man some time.
 
Originally posted by GamecockTripp:
Year 1 -- Brought in 3 guys nobody wanted (Carrera, Chat, Kacinas) in a couple of weeks. Sucked.

Year 2 -- Ran off Horn's players. Brought in a bunch of players. Some were hits, some were misses. Got a transfer. He got hurt. Overall, sucked.

Year 3 -- Signed 4 guys. One's turned out OK, 2 have been hurt, 1 never enrolled. Kacinas, Chat, and Notice have turned out to be pleasant surprises considering basically no one wanted them. Currently sucking.

Going forward -- Martin started in the toilet. Then, he ran off 4 guys and started over. We were lower than the toilet. I guess we were in the sewer. To even win any games at all right now is an accomplishment. People bitching about firing Martin are wasting their breath. He will 100% get a 4th year and he will 99% get a 5th year. I'd even say it's about 95% he gets a sixth year. Give the man some time.
Click to expand...
Everything you stated is the truth.

However, what you are missing is a good coach still turns it around by year 3 or 4 (if not sooner). Bruce Pearl (at Auburn where no one even cares they have a team) took a team of walk-ons, jucos and players he couldn't even recruit (due to the show cause) and passed us in half a year. Kevin Stallings (at Vandy) lost his entire team brought in something like 9 new players and passed us in half a year. TN has hired 3 new coaches and we haven't beaten them since 2007.

I don't expect to beat KY but I do expect us (in our coaches 3rd year) to beat a team that his historically bad, rebuilding with a coach in his first year. I expect us to beat a MSU team that only fielded 5 scholarship players a couple of years ago. I expect us to beat Elon, USC Upstate, Manhattan, and a terrible Charlotte team every time we play them.

None of these items has Martin been able to do.

What is your expectation?
 
Originally posted by Cocky4SC:
For those who doubt his ability to coach....
He wasn't the one shooting right over 24%
Players have to execute their shots.
Help is one the way. I would be upset with Frank
If the guys weren't displaying effort or there was a lack of coaching.
Many on here find a way to bring up bringing in
Greg Marshall or another coach who could get the job done,
But the mess that Frank inherited will not be fixed over night.

Simply put... Bashing the program after every
Loss will not fix anything.
2016 should be a NIT year. 2017 should be NCAA tournament or bust.
Click to expand...
Being from Sparkle City myself...........well said Cocky
 
Originally posted by uscfan1981:

Originally posted by Cocky4SC:
You honestly think we could have any coach we wanted?!? It is a nice thought but what dream world is this... What makes our job so lucrative to lure in a BIG coach? What if that coach didn't win immediately? Fire him also? What if we did that with Spurrier his first four years here? Ask Duke how that worked out by keeping coach K... Think they have won a few since his rough start... Give Martin time. This time two years from now will be different. If no improvement is made and tournament appearance imminent, then cut ties.
Click to expand...
Nearly yes. We have money. We have fan support. We have low expectations. Since you brought up coach K...we hired Bill Foster (Coach Ks predecessor at Duke) bc we were the better job.
Click to expand...
Not sure how a lackluster basketball independent that USC was in 1981 was a better job than Dook in the high-profile ACC. I had always heard that Foster wanted out of the ACC pressure cooker, which is probably why he cancelled the Blue Devils' return trip to Columbia in 1982 after our appearance in the Iron Duke Classic. Sad, because I was clamoring for USC to play more ACC schools than just Clemron.
 
Frank took over a dumpster fire left by Horn. I think we will all give him that. And even though a bit too profane for some, I believe most like his energy. But I think next year is the season for Frank to put up, or shut up. It will be his fourth year, and if you cannot at least start to see improvement to where you know you are heading in the right direction by that point it probably isn't going to happen. If it doesn't we can make a change, or just stick our head in the sand like the folks at Clemson and just convince ourselves that the man on the sideline is a genius and will get it done at some point. And we have no idea if Frank can build a program from scratch, as he took over a pretty good situation Huggins left him at KSU. And some at KSU say the main reason he took the USC job was because he knew that KSU was starting to slip. I surely hope that line of thinking is wrong, but we really don't know if he can get it done or not. We will see.
 
Originally posted by olcoach04:
Frank took over a dumpster fire left by Horn. I think we will all give him that. And even though a bit too profane for some, I believe most like his energy. But I think next year is the season for Frank to put up, or shut up. It will be his fourth year, and if you cannot at least start to see improvement to where you know you are heading in the right direction by that point it probably isn't going to happen. If it doesn't we can make a change, or just stick our head in the sand like the folks at Clemson and just convince ourselves that the man on the sideline is a genius and will get it done at some point. And we have no idea if Frank can build a program from scratch, as he took over a pretty good situation Huggins left him at KSU. And some at KSU say the main reason he took the USC job was because he knew that KSU was starting to slip. I surely hope that line of thinking is wrong, but we really don't know if he can get it done or not. We will see.
Click to expand...
KSU two seasons before Frank
15-13
23-12 Frank's first there as asst

KSU two seasons after Frank
27-8
20-13

Record while at KSU
21-12
22-12
29-8
23-11
22-11
 
Then something isn't exactly translating from Manhatten to Columbia. Seeing those stats I would have expected auch quicker turnaround.
 
Originally posted by uscfan1981:
Originally posted by GamecockTripp:
Year 1 -- Brought in 3 guys nobody wanted (Carrera, Chat, Kacinas) in a couple of weeks. Sucked.

Year 2 -- Ran off Horn's players. Brought in a bunch of players. Some were hits, some were misses. Got a transfer. He got hurt. Overall, sucked.

Year 3 -- Signed 4 guys. One's turned out OK, 2 have been hurt, 1 never enrolled. Kacinas, Chat, and Notice have turned out to be pleasant surprises considering basically no one wanted them. Currently sucking.

Going forward -- Martin started in the toilet. Then, he ran off 4 guys and started over. We were lower than the toilet. I guess we were in the sewer. To even win any games at all right now is an accomplishment. People bitching about firing Martin are wasting their breath. He will 100% get a 4th year and he will 99% get a 5th year. I'd even say it's about 95% he gets a sixth year. Give the man some time.
Click to expand...
Everything you stated is the truth.

However, what you are missing is a good coach still turns it around by year 3 or 4 (if not sooner). Bruce Pearl (at Auburn where no one even cares they have a team) took a team of walk-ons, jucos and players he couldn't even recruit (due to the show cause) and passed us in half a year. Kevin Stallings (at Vandy) lost his entire team brought in something like 9 new players and passed us in half a year. TN has hired 3 new coaches and we haven't beaten them since 2007.

I don't expect to beat KY but I do expect us (in our coaches 3rd year) to beat a team that his historically bad, rebuilding with a coach in his first year. I expect us to beat a MSU team that only fielded 5 scholarship players a couple of years ago. I expect us to beat Elon, USC Upstate, Manhattan, and a terrible Charlotte team every time we play them.

None of these items has Martin been able to do.

What is your expectation?
Click to expand...
And you've stated the truth, too. My expectations are that I don't have any. I think some of us act like we're a basketball school just because Frank McGuire had about 7 good seasons back in the 60's and 70's. We haven't won a tournament game in 42 years. We had 1 good season under Felton, 2 good years under Folgler, and a few decent seasons under Odom. That's it. We've had about 6 or 7 "good" seasons in my lifetime and I'm 38 years old. Maybe Frank Martin isn't as good as the coaches you mentioned. Maybe he is. I don't know.

But as a school that basically hasn't done squat in basketball in my lifetime we should give the man at least 5, if not 6, years to do his job as best he can and not say, "Well Auburn did it" or "Well Vandy did it." Bruce Pearl is one of the biggest cheaters in college basketball and will have Auburn on probation within 3 years. Kevin Stallings has been at Vandy for 14 years and has had 1 losing season. Pearl can recruit up there with Calipari and Stallings is a great coach. I wanted him when we fired Horn.

All I know is Martin's our coach and all we can do right now is support him and the team. It's his 3rd season, 2nd if you throw the first year out because he ran off 4 players and started fresh from scratch. Should he have gone after more JUCO's? I don't know but I do know that I won't have expectations next year either. I'll have some in year 5 and certainly in year 6. You're not going to fix 42 years of sucking in 3 or 4 years. It's going to take some time.
 
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