Dual Threat vs Pocket Passer

[Cockish]

For those that understand offense, why has the success of Connor Shaw not rubbed off on this coaching staff? I understand Stockton is a dual threat QB and he obviously excels at it but it's my understanding Bobo doesn't run his offense with such a QB style. It seems to me that with our mediocre OL play over the years and the speed of today's defenses, why not design our offense around a dual threat QB especially since we can't recruit/coach up major talent to support drive killing pocket passers?

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

Dual threat QBs are not some cure all. They still have to have the knowledge and ability to Run an SEC offense. Beyond that- This staff has recruited MULTIPLE dual threat QBs- Dak Joyner. He is not capable of running an SEC offense, does not possess the arm talent. By your logic we should start him anyway just because he can run? Urich was a dual threat too- should we have let him run the offense? Both were basically moved to WR. Oh wait, how about Doty- also a dual threat! So... What was your point? Literally HALF or more of the QBs Muschamp has had were dual threat guys. I am sure the coaching staff doesn’t start them because they are morons who don’t want to win? No. They will start the guys who give us the best chance to win, and none of the guys we have brought in were the next Connor Shaw. Verdict is still out on Doty obviously. Implying the staff needs to learn something from Connor Shaw and only play dual threat guys is a myopic take on a complex situation.

 

[ToddFlanders]

Bottom line with either, the guy has to be a great passer to be a great QB. If he can run as well, then you have an incredible weapon. I still think Shaw was an underrated passer, but he had a career 65% completion rate and a 24/1 TD/INT ratio his senior year. Add in his running skills and it’s easy to see why he was arguably USC’s greatest QB.

I think one issue that comes up with a lot of “dual threat” QB’s is that their running skills are used to make up for their lacking passing skills instead of enhancing them. So you get a guy who can’t pass that great, but can get extend plays with their legs. That works sometimes but can’t give the consistency necessary to be great.

But with the QB position, passing is all that matters. The only QB that I’ve ever seen that could truly make up for his lack of passing skills with his legs was Mike Vick.

 

[DeepfriedCock]

For those that understand offense, why has the success of Connor Shaw not rubbed off on this coaching staff? I understand Stockton is a dual threat QB and he obviously excels at it but it's my understanding Bobo doesn't run his offense with such a QB style. It seems to me that with our mediocre OL play over the years and the speed of today's defenses, why not design our offense around a dual threat QB especially since we can't recruit/coach up major talent to support drive killing pocket passers?

Until we surround any of our QBs with the NFL talent that surrounded Shaw. It will be hard to achieve the success Shaw's teams had. Playing ball control winning with defense takes talent. We aren't nowhere close on defense. With our defense and overall lack of talent on offense We'll continue having to throw the ball over 30 times a game. Relying on our QBs to win the game every week.

 

[vacock#]

We need a great QB who can pass, if receivers are covered run away and look for any one who is open and if not run and gain some yards. And we need a wildcat package with our subs so the defense can’t get used to the plays that we run.

 

[tngamecock#]

Make no mistake about it.........the kid in 2022 (assuming he sticks with us) can do both. Watching Doty's highlights, he appears to have a great arm and can fly. I guess we'll know soon enough.

 

[carolinamyke]

Plus Gauthier has size and is a strong passer. Our Q B room looks solid for future

 

[fowl_mood]

Our friends up the road a bit would beg to disagree about the absolute need for a mobile QB. Think about the "almost" teams out there with stoic, less than fleet QBs. Michigan, Georgia with Fromm, Ohio State with a hurt Fields last year. Southern Cal is a good example of how living and dying with statuesque pocket presence limits your ceiling. The NFL now has Watson, Machomes, Jackson, etc. Before long there will be no more Brady's. And surprise; all of these teams have better all around talent than us, but QB versatility determines their ultimate success.

We rave about Shaw, opined about how Doty would reinvigorate us, marveled at Stockton last night, can't believe Lawrence got that first down on his feet. Our offensive line is always a project of sorts and we bemoan the lack of playmakers. Yet, we limit our number one playmaker's capability.

We don't need Lamar Jackson. We do need decent mobility. We start this season with two guys who are great kids and great arms, and no record yet of showing how they can make a first down or exhibit some escapability under pressure.

Our most memorable and big game QBs in recent years, Garcia and Shaw, had great feet. If we want to be successful in the future, we better remember our recent past. The game on the field has changed. Not surprisingly, we have not.

 

[Cockish]

Dual threat QBs are not some cure all. They still have to have the knowledge and ability to Run an SEC offense. Beyond that- This staff has recruited MULTIPLE dual threat QBs- Dak Joyner. He is not capable of running an SEC offense, does not possess the arm talent. By your logic we should start him anyway just because he can run? Urich was a dual threat too- should we have let him run the offense? Both were basically moved to WR. Oh wait, how about Doty- also a dual threat! So... What was your point? Literally HALF or more of the QBs Muschamp has had were dual threat guys. I am sure the coaching staff doesn’t start them because they are morons who don’t want to win? No. They will start the guys who give us the best chance to win, and none of the guys we have brought in were the next Connor Shaw. Verdict is still out on Doty obviously. Implying the staff needs to learn something from Connor Shaw and only play dual threat guys is a myopic take on a complex situation.

I appreciate your knowledgeable assessment of things. Apparently from your condescending remarks, you missed my preface for opinons from those who know offenses meaning i didn't claim to be as knowledgeable as the likes of you but the threat/productivity of a running QB keeps the chains moving. Bet you're fun at parties.

 

[JGH 35]

The fact of the matter is we have not had a dual threat QB since Shaw. Dual threat means you actually have to be proficient at BOTH. The recruits we have had that were advertised as "Dual Threat" were not. They were basically QBs who had run the ball a lot in HS but really did not have the skills to delivery all the passes accurately that are required in College. This is just another example of people falling for the hype of "Stars" bestowed upon HS players by people who don't know what they are talking about. The disappointing thing is that our coaching staff could not do a better evaluation during recruiting.

 

[Cockish]

Our friends up the road a bit would beg to disagree about the absolute need for a mobile QB. Think about the "almost" teams out there with stoic, less than fleet QBs. Michigan, Georgia with Fromm, Ohio State with a hurt Fields last year. Southern Cal is a good example of how living and dying with statuesque pocket presence limits your ceiling. The NFL now has Watson, Machomes, Jackson, etc. Before long there will be no more Brady's. And surprise; all of these teams have better all around talent than us, but QB versatility determines their ultimate success.

We rave about Shaw, opined about how Doty would reinvigorate us, marveled at Stockton last night, can't believe Lawrence got that first down on his feet. Our offensive line is always a project of sorts and we bemoan the lack of playmakers. Yet, we limit our number one playmaker's capability.

We don't need Lamar Jackson. We do need decent mobility. We start this season with two guys who are great kids and great arms, and no record yet of showing how they can make a first down or exhibit some escapability under pressure.

Our most memorable and big game QBs in recent years, Garcia and Shaw, had great feet. If we want to be successful in the future, we better remember our recent past. The game on the field has changed. Not surprisingly, we have not.

You nailed the purpose of my post but I wanted to hear other opinions. Clemson was successful with Watson, Auburn with Newton, etc. Keeping plays alive with one's feet and designing plays around a decent running/passing QB will win you some games.

 

[cadcock]

For those that understand offense, why has the success of Connor Shaw not rubbed off on this coaching staff? I understand Stockton is a dual threat QB and he obviously excels at it but it's my understanding Bobo doesn't run his offense with such a QB style. It seems to me that with our mediocre OL play over the years and the speed of today's defenses, why not design our offense around a dual threat QB especially since we can't recruit/coach up major talent to support drive killing pocket passers?

Our coaches should also recruit fast powerful running backs who can have great vision and balance like big George and Marcus. While they are at it they should recruit edge rushers with super fast get offs like Clowney and big fast possession receivers like Alshon and Sterling. This coaching stuff is so easy I can’t believe more people aren’t doing it. 😂😂😂

 

[chucktowncock]

We're in good shape.

Just think of all the powerhouse programs that envy us.

Weak Florist, Vandy, Mizzou, etc., want to be like UofSC.

They have all cloned our all black football suits.

The players love 'em; black costumes matter.

Right?

Go Cocks !!!

 

[Flameout12]

For those that understand offense, why has the success of Connor Shaw not rubbed off on this coaching staff

I don't know. Seems Muschamp just isn't desperate enough to see what most of the top programs and NFL teams have figured out.

 

[Flameout12]

Playing ball control winning with defense takes talent.

But ball control was not Spurrier's design. It was a byproduct of a QB who could get 1st downs and keep the offense on the field. This was especially true with the '11 team.

 

[Wjmfour1]

Until we surround any of our QBs with the NFL talent that surrounded Shaw. It will be hard to achieve the success Shaw's teams had. Playing ball control winning with defense takes talent. We aren't nowhere close on defense. With our defense and overall lack of talent on offense We'll continue having to throw the ball over 30 times a game. Relying on our QBs to win the game every week.

Connor had Spurrier for a HC.. we now have Muschump.. end of discussion

 

[DeepfriedCock]

But ball control was not Spurrier's design. It was a byproduct of a QB who could get 1st downs and keep the offense on the field. This was especially true with the '11 team.

He chucked the Fun n gun after year 5. Running the ball became the first priority once Elliot came aboard. Once he implemented App St's running schemes. RB production went up drastically with carries and yardage, Overall ToP went up. Once Eli

 

[DeepfriedCock]

Connor had Spurrier for a HC.. we now have Muschump.. end of discussion

Screw Spurrier and Muschamp. Spurrier couldn't win a Conference Championship here. And Muschamp can't win one here either. We need a HC who can take us to the next level.

 

[gamecox4982]

If you do not have QB that can extend plays you will NEVER win a championship of any kind

 

[BobbyBReloaded1975]

I think guys like Trevor and Justin Fields are perfect examples of guys who can kind of do it both . Neither one of those guys are Lamar Jackson or Michael Vick but if they get out in the open they can both take it 50
Yards . I think the perfect example in his prime was Andrew Luck . People forget what an amazing athlete he was . Big physical , accurate QB but he could run like a deer . When you look at guys like Mahomes , Deshaun , Dak , Aaron Rodgers in his prime it’s really hard to define them as dual threat or pocket QBs because they do everything well .

 

[Flameout12]

He chucked the Fun n gun after year 5. Running the ball became the first priority once Elliot came aboard. Once he implemented App St's running schemes. RB production went up drastically with carries and yardage, Overall ToP went up. Once Eli

Not accurate. Steve never abandoned his passing game. We had implemented some of the zone/option plays in '09 before Shawn came here. Mangus was in on this as well. They basically rewrote the running game portion of the playbook. Running the ball became a no brainer when Steve could let Marcus win games for us, especially in the red zone.

 

[Flameout12]

Screw Spurrier and Muschamp. Spurrier couldn't win a Conference Championship here. And Muschamp can't win one here either. We need a HC who can take us to the next level.

Well screw you. I have great memories of winning 33 games in 3 years. Being bitter gets no respect from me.

 

[Flameout12]

If you do not have QB that can extend plays you will NEVER win a championship of any kind

Yep....there are exceptions (NFL), but not many.

 

[DeepfriedCock]

Well screw you. I have great memories of winning 33 games in 3 years. Being bitter gets no respect from me.

During that 33 win game stretch. We finished second in the east three years in a row. We never played in a major bowl game. If your one of those fans that only care about beating Clemson. I'm sure it was great. Finding away to lose the east yearly was disappointing to fans that want to win the SEC.

 

[DeepfriedCock]

Not accurate. Steve never abandoned his passing game. We had implemented some of the zone/option plays in '09 before Shawn came here. Mangus was in on this as well. They basically rewrote the running game portion of the playbook. Running the ball became a no brainer when Steve could let Marcus win games for us, especially in the red zone.

Then Elliot came in and rewrote their run blocking scheme. According to Spurrier when Elliot called him wanting the job. He told Spurrier why we wouldn't having success running the ball because of our blocking scheme. He told him how he would change our blocking scheme. That's why Spurrier hired him.

 

[Flameout12]

During that 33 win game stretch. We finished second in the east three years in a row. We never played in a major bowl game. If your one of those fans that only care about beating Clemson. I'm sure it was great. Finding away to lose the east yearly was disappointing to fans that want to win the SEC.

Yea....3 NY's Day bowls were just minor games. 3 Top 10 finishes....but, then again, I guess we sucked.

 

[Flameout12]

Then Elliot came in and rewrote their run blocking scheme. According to Spurrier when Elliot called him wanting the job. He told Spurrier why we wouldn't having success running the ball because of our blocking scheme. He told him how he would change our blocking scheme. That's why Spurrier hired him.

Zone blocking....it goes with the zone run plays. You don't zone block on passing downs (RPO is an exception) and you don't zone block on certain run plays. We also have done zone blocking under Eric Wolford, who was here before Shawn Elliott. Most of this originated with Shanahan when he was at Denver.

 

[FIcock]

Dual threat QBs are not some cure all. They still have to have the knowledge and ability to Run an SEC offense. Beyond that- This staff has recruited MULTIPLE dual threat QBs- Dak Joyner. He is not capable of running an SEC offense, does not possess the arm talent. By your logic we should start him anyway just because he can run? Urich was a dual threat too- should we have let him run the offense? Both were basically moved to WR. Oh wait, how about Doty- also a dual threat! So... What was your point? Literally HALF or more of the QBs Muschamp has had were dual threat guys. I am sure the coaching staff doesn’t start them because they are morons who don’t want to win? No. They will start the guys who give us the best chance to win, and none of the guys we have brought in were the next Connor Shaw. Verdict is still out on Doty obviously. Implying the staff needs to learn something from Connor Shaw and only play dual threat guys is a myopic take on a complex situation.

Poor argument about Dak Joyner ability to run a SEC offence. He didn't have a OC that was capable of putting together a solid game plan or make in game adjustments. Coaching means ALOT. There has not been a decent OC at USC since GA Mangus. I hope Bobo is able to change that. In addition, I dont think Dak has been completely healthy when QBing for us

 

[Dizzy01]

Zone blocking....it goes with the zone run plays. You don't zone block on passing downs (RPO is an exception) and you don't zone block on certain run plays. We also have done zone blocking under Eric Wolford, who was here before Shawn Elliott. Most of this originated with Shanahan when he was at Denver.

If you run a zone blocking scheme you do it run or pass. It’s about letting the DL run himself past the play regardless of what you called.

 

[DeepfriedCock]

Zone blocking....it goes with the zone run plays. You don't zone block on passing downs (RPO is an exception) and you don't zone block on certain run plays. We also have done zone blocking under Eric Wolford, who was here before Shawn Elliott. Most of this originated with Shanahan when he was at Denver.

We Zone blocked under Brad Scott. Zone blocking is playside and the backside leading with same foot. We zone blocked in high school in the early 90s. Whats your point?

 

[Legendary Cock]

During that 33 win game stretch. We finished second in the east three years in a row. We never played in a major bowl game. If your one of those fans that only care about beating Clemson. I'm sure it was great. Finding away to lose the east yearly was disappointing to fans that want to win the SEC.

FWIW, one of the main reasons we didn't play in a BCS bowl was because of the conference tie-ins. We had the same record as Clemson with a tougher strength of schedule and head to head wins over them. But because of those tie-ins, they got to play in the BCS bowls while we were "relegated" to the Citrus and Outback Bowls.

Imagine if we could've used playing in the Orange Bowl to sell to recruits?

 

[DeepfriedCock]

FWIW, one of the main reasons we didn't play in a BCS bowl was because of the conference tie-ins. We had the same record as Clemson with a tougher strength of schedule and head to head wins over them. But because of those tie-ins, they got to play in the BCS bowls while we were "relegated" to the Citrus and Outback Bowls.

Imagine if we could've used playing in the Orange Bowl to sell to recruits?

I don't feel better about not making a BCS game. During our 3 year run Arkansas and Florida played in BCS bowl game.

 

[Legendary Cock]

I don't feel better about not making a BCS game. During our 3 year run Arkansas and Florida played in BCS bowl game.

Understood. But it's pretty obvious that the deck was stacked in our favor under the old rules -- and may still be under the new ones.

But I don't think we should ignore the fact that no one ever got us even that close that often before spu.

 

[Flameout12]

We Zone blocked under Brad Scott. Zone blocking is playside and the backside leading with same foot. We zone blocked in high school in the early 90s. Whats your point?

You are clueless.

 

[USCBatgirl21]

I think one issue that comes up with a lot of “dual threat” QB’s is that their running skills are used to make up for their lacking passing skills instead of enhancing them. So you get a guy who can’t pass that great, but can get extend plays with their legs. That works sometimes but can’t give the consistency necessary to be great.

Hammer meet nail.

 

[paladin181]

Unless you're running the Veer or Triple Option Wishbone, a QB must be a good passer before he is a good runner.

 

[DeepfriedCock]

You are clueless.

Obviously you have no clue. Zone blocking has been around before Denver made it famous. We were zone blocking in high School. Leading with the same foot to your area, creates the crease for the RB to cut back while leaving the backside unblocked. I'm not saying Brad Scott invented it. Brad didn't install it until 1996. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.goupstate.com/article/19960911/News/605185567?template=ampart&ved=2ahUKEwjvuOvko-nrAhWOVN8KHTtVCs4QFjAHegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw06PDsUVA-_3gMnwaasZipy&ampcf=1

 

[BobbyBReloaded1975]

Very interesting observation from yesterday . 5 QB’s led their respective teams in Rushing : Kyler Murray , Cam , Josh Allen , LamarJackson , and Russell Wilson . All five teams won . The NFL has acknowledged that the way to win In the future is with a mobile QB .

 

[alston]

Plus Gauthier has size and is a strong passer. Our Q B room looks solid for future

Gauthier doesn't have as strong an arm as Gunner.

 

[Cocky_Corleone]

I expect our coaches to adapt to the ball player. Do what the QBs can do well and recruit the best you can at every position.

Bobo should be able to modify things based on the QBs capability.