From 107.5 discussion- legitimacy of Bonds’ HR record?

[Gamecock Lifer]

Who is the all time HR leader? On 107.5 they were going around about how Bonds’ records are illegitimate and should not count... Leaving Aaron as the Hr champ.

Personally I view it as a pretty complex argument. I see the logic in devaluing his achievements because of steroid use, but there are caveats to that for me-
1- steroids were rampant in the game at the time, even pitchers used them often... Does that not level the field a bit?

2- The MLB did not even start testing for these substances until well after he had established himself as the best player in the game in his “new body”... Technically they were against the rules but so is too much pine tar, corked bats, pitchers using vaseline and stuff like that... and we all know those things are typically laughed off and looked at as “part of the game”, people just being competitive and trying to get an edge... Especially when it comes to pitchers cheating! If vaseline and such implements were treated as seriously in retrospect as steroids have been- would ANY pitchers be in the hall of fame at this point?

3- He was a HOF player before he got all juiced up! This is the least relevant of the caveats regarding the Hr king debate as we all know that while he was a great player before, he was never on track to break that record until after he blew up!

In the end, personally I think he should be in the HOF and I personally feel his stats do/should be looked at as legitimate but I get why people hate the guy.

 

[Who Cares_Who Cares]

I tend to agree with most of what you said.

The thing that I care about most in sports is entertainment, and Barry Bonds was the last baseball player that I would actually make an effort to tune in to watch his at-bats.

When he stood in the box, there was just such a palpable sense of potential energy. I think I used this same analogy in the Tyson thread, but it was kind of like waiting for an atomic bomb to explode. He'd see maybe 2 pitches the entire game that he had any shot to do anything with, and with a lightning-fast twist of the hips, would flick them out of the park with incredible regularity.

His swing was the absolute picture of efficiency: compact, sudden, almost no arm extension. Mike Trout's swing has some similarities though without quite the same violence or ability to turn on the inside pitch.

I get why people hate him, but he entertained the hell out of me.

 

[polo-loco]

I was in the stands when he tied the record. For that reason, Bond's record should stand. I mean, if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying, right Clemson?

 

[ClowneyPosse]

Look at what hgh did to his head. There's definitely an asterisk beside his numbers.

 

[kio57]

He couldn't throw out a crippled Sid Bream, no HOF, no HR record!

 

[Garnet chicken]

Sorry no HOF for drug induced records. Hank is the HR king. Maris for what he went through deserves a special award.

 

[FORKCOCK]

Hank is still the man. Never even wore a batting glove.

 

[Dizzy01]

It’s fascinating that a sport that bans Pete Rose still is on the fence about celebrating roid freaks.

 

[Bubbaglide]

I don’t hate Bonds but I don’t view him as a HOF player. He was good before he juiced but not one of the best. Aaron, Maris, Clemente, Pete Rose did it naturally. The Babe did it half drunk and fluffy during the dead ball era. He was juiced on fruit of the vine. To me, the Hall is for players who excelled following the rules

 

[Wedge Antilles]

I don’t hate Bonds but I don’t view him as a HOF player. He was good before he juiced but not one of the best. Aaron, Maris, Clemente, Pete Rose did it naturally. The Babe did it half drunk and fluffy during the dead ball era. He was juiced on fruit of the vine. To me, the Hall is for players who excelled following the rules

You dont think he was one of the best before 1998? You are outside of your head. He was already a 3 time MVP and should have had 4 consecutive MVPs, but Terry freaking Pendelton got it over him despite Bonds leading the league in OBP and OPS and have 30 more RBI than Pendleton.

He hit 46 HR in 1993, long before he supposedly started taking performance enhancing drugs, because neither you or I know when he was taken them, but it is supposedly sometime after 1998.

He was great, always

 

[hillstosea]

You dont think he was one of the best before 1998? You are outside of your head. He was already a 3 time MVP and should have had 4 consecutive MVPs, but Terry freaking Pendelton got it over him despite Bonds leading the league in OBP and OPS and have 30 more RBI than Pendleton.

He hit 46 HR in 1993, long before he supposedly started taking performance enhancing drugs, because neither you or I know when he was taken them, but it is supposedly sometime after 1998.

He was great, always

No HOF for Bonds, Clemmons or any of those who had eye popping stats.

 

[adcoop]

Outside of the 73 home run year, Bonds consistently hit between 35-45 home runs every year. Bonds never went over 50 home runs again. So, people blaming the home run record on juicing is just looking at the negative. What some don't look at is the shorter porch in right field in S.F. That is when Bonds' home runs ticked up. Some, also, missed the enormous amount of intentional walks he received later in his career. Adding it all up, I think it is unfair to deny Bonds' records or the HOF based on speculation and head size.

 

[DarnSteph]

They are officially out of topics

who cares

To be fair, there’s no real sports going on right now

 

[Who Cares_Who Cares]

I can sort of understand where he was coming from. He saw McGwire and Sosa getting all of the adulation for "saving baseball" and he had to be sitting there thinking "I'm better than both of these guys. Why should they get to hog all the fame?" Not to excuse it, but you can imagine the thought process.

And a lot of other guys juiced in that era, but no one else came close to his stats.

 

[Conway Gamecock]

Bonds cheated to get what he got. So did Sosa and McGwire. So Aaron owns the career record, and Maris owns the single season record. You want to own the record, you have to go earn it like those guys did.....

 

[GCDC1959]

You dont think he was one of the best before 1998? You are outside of your head. He was already a 3 time MVP

He hit 46 HR in 1993, long before he supposedly started taking performance enhancing drugs, because neither you or I know when he was taken them, but it is supposedly sometime after 1998.

He was great, always

I agree. Barry Bonds had over 400 homeruns before he watched and coveted the attention given to Big Mac and Sosa in 1998. According to his girlfriend, he started juicing. So he would have easily hit over 500 homers (benchmark for HOF) and had golden gloves, stolen bases...at least four-tool MVP.

He should be in the HOF!

 

[Bubbaglide]

You dont think he was one of the best before 1998? You are outside of your head. He was already a 3 time MVP and should have had 4 consecutive MVPs, but Terry freaking Pendelton got it over him despite Bonds leading the league in OBP and OPS and have 30 more RBI than Pendleton.

He hit 46 HR in 1993, long before he supposedly started taking performance enhancing drugs, because neither you or I know when he was taken them, but it is supposedly sometime after 1998.

He was great, always

This was a discussion, so if you don’t agree with my opinion that doesn’t make me “ outside my head” anymore than your opinion makes you outside your head. I respect your opinion but evidently those who vote for the Hall don’t think a cheater belongs in the Hall. Make no mistake he cheated. His performance was artificially enhanced. The folks who cast ballots for the Hall evidentially don’t think he belongs there. We will never know how many HR he might have had if he played natural. But he chose to cheat. To put him in the hall cheapens the accomplishments of those in the hall who did it without cheating IMHO. Your mileage may vary. Batteries not included

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

It’s fascinating that a sport that bans Pete Rose still is on the fence about celebrating roid freaks.

I don’t think “the sport” is on the fence at all. Nobody associated with roids has made the HOF. That is a clear message...

 

[ToddFlanders]

Hank Aaron used steroids too. Dude had a late career resurgence (along with his teammates) that could only come with the roids. Braves teammates were open about using at that time too.

Give the title to Bonds.

 

[Gamecockben1979]

Hank—755. When the guy that “broke” the record still isn’t in the Hall of Fame, that tells you all you need to know about the legitimacy of his stats.

 

[gamecox4982]

If Griffey Jr. would have stayed healthy (missed over 500 games) I believe he would have become the all time HR leader. He also missed 68 games due to strike season. The guy had the best looking swing ever!

 

[USCBatgirl21]

If The Kid didn't have the injury issues he did, he would be the HR King, not Bonds.
Bonds was a total a**hat, and not team player. He truly believed he was bigger than the Game.That is why I can't stand him.
Hank will always be my HR King.

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

I don’t hate Bonds but I don’t view him as a HOF player. He was good before he juiced but not one of the best. Aaron, Maris, Clemente, Pete Rose did it naturally. The Babe did it half drunk and fluffy during the dead ball era. He was juiced on fruit of the vine. To me, the Hall is for players who excelled following the rules

I respect your opinion and obviously nobody will ever know for sure but I think he was clearly on the way to being a HOF player well before he started juicing. Beyond that- if following the rules is a criteria for making the hall or legitimizing your stats, PRACTICALLY NO PITCHER SHOULD HAVE EVER BEEN INDUCTED! Name a pitcher who never ”doctored” a baseball! They do not exist... That sort of cheating has been part of the game since day 1 and it considered no big deal! People have always made light of it and the guys that were notorious for it back in the day are in the Hall right now. Sign steeling is another good example... Sign steeling was always considered gamesmanship, until recently when they started using video to steel them, not it is cheating and everyone wants the Astros to be punished severely right? Why do we treat some cheating as a horrible violation that should banish someone from the game but other forma of cheating are gamesmanship?


That is one reason I support him gettin the proper recognition. Bonds was one of the best hitters in the game but he was really good in the field as well. Eight gold gloves! Sure, roids helped him hit more HRs, but his athleticism and hand eye coordination made him a great baseball player his entire career. That is why he should be in the HOF. The fact that he was just doing what everybody else was doing at the time (And many had BEEN doing since back in the 70s/80s..) means he did what he had to do to level the playing field. That is why I personally feel his stats count.

For those who think Bonds does bot deserve any credit or whatever- answer me this: Why is he the only one who broke Aaron’s record? Nobody else came close... Even with so many juicing... Nobody did what Bonds did as well as he did it for as long as he did it. He is one of the greatest players in the history of the game. Is he also a lying sack of excrement with a bad attitude? Maybe, but if being an Ahole precludes you from the hall again, they would have very few guys in there!

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

One other point to think about- Hank Aaron said himself that He feels Bonds’ record should count despite the steroid use.

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

If Griffey Jr. would have stayed healthy (missed over 500 games) I believe he would have become the all time HR leader. He also missed 68 games due to strike season. The guy had the best looking swing ever!

Bonds was in the league during the strike as well, and ironic you should mention the strike as that is basically what fueled the steroid explosion we saw. The MLB all but endorsed steroids as Sosa and McGuire started lacing 60 HRs a year and it got fans who were salty over the holdout to tune back in! Bonds saw all the attention and money Sosa and Bonds were getting from it, every player KNEW what they were doing... He literally was quoted by another player who said they were all sitting around one night talking about it and Bonds came right out and said “OK, I will start taking that stuff and show everyone how it is done”- or something along those lines. Boy did he! LOL

 

[ToddFlanders]

One other point to think about- Hank Aaron said himself that He feels Bonds’ record should count despite the steroid use.

It’s because he knows he’s just as guilty! His conscience got the best of him.

 

[biting curve]

Yes, Bonds used steroids, probably HGH, who knows what else.

So did lots of other players, some of whom you’d least expect. Rafael Palmeiro comes to mind. Visually, he wasn’t as jacked as guys like Bonds, Brady Anderson, Pudge Rodriguez, Clemens, Canseco, and others. But he was still using, not to the extent they did, but he still used to give him an edge.

Steroids/HGH give you a strength edge, and can help you heal from minor injuries, but can also lead to muscle injuries. Did Ripken possibly use steroids to help him set his game record? Did Griffey’s hamstring/ other soft muscle injuries possibly come from steroid use? Biggio and Bagwell are both HOF guys, Bagwell was pretty jacked.. but did Biggio use something to help heal from being HBP’s so many times? Mark McGuire admitted using androstenedione, which was (maybe still is) an over the counter supplement. Where do you draw the line?

No one knows, and barring an admittance from former players we’ll never know. Bottom line, you have to pick the best players from their time period. Bonds was a jackass, but he was one of the better players in the game when he weighed 185 lbs. He still was at 245, he still produced despite being pitched around a good bit. Like him or not, his records stand, and I’m a huge Aaron fan that hates to admit it.

And yes...Rose belongs in the HOF. Mention on his plaque what he did as a coach at the end of his career, but his body of work as a player and his standing as one of the best of his generation should ensure his placement.

 

[biting curve]

It’s because he knows he’s just as guilty! His conscience got the best of him.

You don’t know that.

I would suggest that Hank is just being classy about it.

 

[ToddFlanders]

You don’t know that.

I would suggest that Hank is just being classy about it.

All the evidence points to Aaron, Darryl Evans and Davey Johnson using steroids in the 1973 season. With Aaron’s late career uptick starting a couple of years before.

 

[hobcawcreekcock]

Bonds took so many steroids that his hat size increased and his shoe size as well. Grown men don't have this occur naturally.

Henry Aaron didn't know what a steroid was. Probably hardly, if ever, lifted weights. What Aaron had were quick wrists, a great HR swing, and God given talent! As a Braves fan growing up, he was my favorite player, as in sure millions of other kids!

Bonds HR record is bogus. He CHEATED to obtain those numbers. Hell of a baseball player, but hardly a power hitter until he juiced. McGuire and Sosa the same. Artificially enhanced HR production. Hell, let's throw Clemens in this group as a pitcher. Those guys cheated Anerica's game. They did help put butts in the seats, but so did Aaron, Ruth, Mantle, Mays and other great power hitters, without juicing!

 

[Jbouton2]

I was totally against him in HOF. Over the past few years I have mellowed out on that. He was a great player prior to his usage of steroids. I think you just "ignore" the HR record and look at him as a total player throughout his career. I apply the same standard to Roger Clemons also. Of course I am biased on Clemons, he was one of my favorites.

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

I was totally against him in HOF. Over the past few years I have mellowed out on that. He was a great player prior to his usage of steroids. I think you just "ignore" the HR record and look at him as a total player throughout his career. I apply the same standard to Roger Clemons also. Of course I am biased on Clemons, he was one of my favorites.

Clemons is an interesting comparison. He was always a great pitcher and really started taking substances late in his career to come back from injury and extend his career... for him, you did not see some crazy difference in size or production from his steroid use.

 

[hillstosea]

It’s because he knows he’s just as guilty! His conscience got the best of him.

Steroid use wasn’t there when hammering hank played

 

[hillstosea]

Clemons is an interesting comparison. He was always a great pitcher and really started taking substances late in his career to come back from injury and extend his career... for him, you did not see some crazy difference in size or production from his steroid use.

7 cy youngs? Dominating starting pitcher at39 years old? No. No. No

 

[biting curve]

All the evidence points to Aaron, Darryl Evans and Davey Johnson using steroids in the 1973 season. With Aaron’s late career uptick starting a couple of years before.

What evidence? Not speculation, but evidence?

 

[biting curve]

Clemons is an interesting comparison. He was always a great pitcher and really started taking substances late in his career to come back from injury and extend his career... for him, you did not see some crazy difference in size or production from his steroid use.

Roger grew a lot his last several years in the league, dude was jacked. Steroids resurrected his career.

 

[Bubbaglide]

I don't think you will see a great number of the juice group go to the Hall. I don't think they should. Bonds probably would have made it on natural talent but he didn't. He chose to juice. He is laughing all the way to the bank. But if he gets in the Hall he will have to buy a ticket. So will McGuire, Canseco and the other juicers. Not an attack on any player but on a condemnation of juicing

 

[ToddFlanders]

Steroid use wasn’t there when hammering hank played

Not true at all. In fact, in 1973 the House Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce concluded a year-long investigation that found that steroids was rampant in baseball and asked Bowie Kuhn, the commissioner at the time to do something about it. (Of course he didn't.)

Not coincidentally, Aaron’s numbers nosedived after that 1973 season along with Johnson and Evans. The kitchen was getting a little too hot.

 

[Dizzy01]

I don’t think “the sport” is on the fence at all. Nobody associated with roids has made the HOF. That is a clear message...

The HOF is determined by writers and then a veterans committee and not the commissioner or the sport itself. The record books are part of the sport and so is Bonds so yes it’s the sport that is still recognizing him and blackballing Rose.

 

[Garnet chicken]

Hank Aaron used steroids too. Dude had a late career resurgence (along with his teammates) that could only come with the roids. Braves teammates were open about using at that time too.

Give the title to Bonds.

Hank at the end had a hard time running the bases must less using roids. The old timers knew hard knocks, sweat, work and talent.