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OT--MJ is the GOAT

Jordan was good, but not the 'greatest player of all time'. He is the most famous, most publicized, most culturally saturated player of all time, but for people who know basketball..he was just in the right place at the right time to become the face of the marketing game. Everyone wants to talk about his 6 titles.......Oooh! Russell had what? 9, 10, 11? For Pete's sake, Robert Horry has 7 or 8, does that make him the GOAT, lol! Jordan would be in the lower half of my top ten for a variety of reasons.
 
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Do you have amnesia? ..Jordan was and is the best that has EVER played the game

Your quote: 'Just in the right place at the right time"..... laffable

I saw Bill Russell , he was great... he could have 20 championships and he would be no Jordan

Your Quote: bottom half of top 10 for a variety of reasons... is hilarious
 
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Do you have amnesia? ..Jordan was and is the best that has EVER played the game

Your quote: 'Just in the right place at the right time"..... laffable

I saw Bill Russell , he was great... he could have 20 championships and he would be no Jordan

Your Quote: bottom half of top 10 for a variety of reasons... is hilarious
So please enlighten me as to why you think Jordan is the greatest of all time, and in return, with my reply, you shall be lifted from your ignorance and arrogance!
 
I could have sat on the bench and won 10 rings with Bill Russells team back in the day. That make me top 10 all time??? lol and Robert Horry never led anyone to a championship. Jordan is the GOAT period. He played in the best period of basketball. He was the best on the court much like Lebron today.
 
Bill Russell played in the best era to win 10 championships. He never would have done that in the 80s-90s. Right place right time.
 
Jordan was good, but not the 'greatest player of all time'. He is the most famous, most publicized, most culturally saturated player of all time, but for people who know basketball..he was just in the right place at the right time to become the face of the marketing game. Everyone wants to talk about his 6 titles.......Oooh! Russell had what? 9, 10, 11? For Pete's sake, Robert Horry has 7 or 8, does that make him the GOAT, lol! Jordan would be in the lower half of my top ten for a variety of reasons.
Please give us your top 10 list so we can have our daily laugh.
 
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Jordan was good, but not the 'greatest player of all time'. He is the most famous, most publicized, most culturally saturated player of all time, but for people who know basketball..he was just in the right place at the right time to become the face of the marketing game. Everyone wants to talk about his 6 titles.......Oooh! Russell had what? 9, 10, 11? For Pete's sake, Robert Horry has 7 or 8, does that make him the GOAT, lol! Jordan would be in the lower half of my top ten for a variety of reasons.

You had me until you put MJ in the bottom half of your top 10. I don't think the gap is as large as a lot people want to make it out to be, but I think he certainly has a solid case for being number 1. But so do several others, namely Kareem (who for some reason is always left out of the convo of being the greatest), Wilt, Oscar Robertson, Magic and Lebron all have legitimate cases to be made, as well.
 
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...dan-abuses-trash-talking-bulls-player-in-1999

He also wasted some Hornets players 1v1. I can't remember who but those videos went viral as well. Hilarious he just wasted him barely tried.

I hated Jordan because you knew who would win the championship from the first game of the season. If you needed a bucket in the clutch - done. If you needed ten buckets in a row to win in a big game -done. Jordan was the Bud Johnson of the NBA.
 
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Never got out of the first round without Pippen. The game is much better today. For one thing the best foreign players of that day were Detlef Schrempf and 4 Yugoslavians. He was a great scorer, who was on championship teams. When he wasn't on championship teams,he still scored a lot, but they didn't do much.
 
Never got out of the first round without Pippen. The game is much better today. For one thing the best foreign players of that day were Detlef Schrempf and 4 Yugoslavians. He was a great scorer, who was on championship teams. When he wasn't on championship teams,he still scored a lot, but they didn't do much.

He was also a great defender.
 
"Never got out of the first round without Pippen"

and the comedy continues...this is better than Seinfeld, please keep it up, my sides are hurting

I just hate there are only a few comedians on this thread
 
"Never got out of the first round without Pippen"

and the comedy continues...this is better than Seinfeld, please keep it up, my sides are hurting

I just hate there are only a few comedians on this thread

Um ... that's true.
 
ok..Jerry

I guess we can only expect childlike responses from you. Someone states a fact; you laught at it, but have no response. Here's hoping you're one of the Gamecock fans who never actually attended our university because your critical thinking skills are severely lacking.
 
One player cant do everything. You have to have help. Someone mentioned Bill Russell above but he had plenty of help getting 10 rings. He played with several HOFs. I mean what player has one a title completely on their own??? Not one they all have teammates so that argument literally means nothing against Jordan or any other player. Jordans defense is never mentioned because of the smooth offensive game. He was an elite defender thought. He won defensive player of the year once and was first team 9 times. The guy was literally good at EVERYTHING.
 
One player cant do everything. You have to have help. Someone mentioned Bill Russell above but he had plenty of help getting 10 rings. He played with several HOFs. I mean what player has one a title completely on their own??? Not one they all have teammates so that argument literally means nothing against Jordan or any other player. Jordans defense is never mentioned because of the smooth offensive game. He was an elite defender thought. He won defensive player of the year once and was first team 9 times. The guy was literally good at EVERYTHING.

I would say great at everything ... with the one exception being 3-point shooting, where he was above average. Remember when Rodman was either injured or suspended during a playoff series and during his absence MJ averaged something like 12 rebs a game?
 
Absolutely he could hit the big 3s when they mattered the most though. And I will agree with great at everything! I was being nice to the naysayers by saying good.
 
Never got out of the first round without Pippen. The game is much better today. For one thing the best foreign players of that day were Detlef Schrempf and 4 Yugoslavians. He was a great scorer, who was on championship teams. When he wasn't on championship teams,he still scored a lot, but they didn't do much.

I notice that when Jordan went to play baseball (let gambling issues fade away), Pippen was back at home after exiting the playoffs early, too. And when MJ joined the team at the end of the 94-95 season, Pippen sure wasn't leading the charge for more hardware. Once Jordan returns full time in 96 and 97, it's back to championships.

Yeah, he was a decent player but when he wasn't winning championships, he was just okay. Or something.
 
I notice that when Jordan went to play baseball (let gambling issues fade away), Pippen was back at home after exiting the playoffs early, too. And when MJ joined the team at the end of the 94-95 season, Pippen sure wasn't leading the charge for more hardware. Once Jordan returns full time in 96 and 97, it's back to championships.

Yeah, he was a decent player but when he wasn't winning championships, he was just okay. Or something.

They were the 2 seed and lost in the Eastern Semis, though. They weren't the best without MJ, but they weren't a bunch of hacks either.
 
For all you mid-30's to mid-40's guys who just had to get the first pair of those patent leather Jordan shoes each year, here's food for thought, lol. First I didn't say your childhood hero was bad, just overrated! 1) The 90's were the decade when the NBA was at it's weakest. Look it up-more teams had abysmal records in that watered down expansion decade than any other. 2) When MJ retired after 1993 to try to play baseball, the Bulls only lost 2 more games the next year without him. Previous poster was correct. Nike and Gatorade made Jordan famous, but Scotty Pippen made him a winner! MJ was a great offensive player with the ball and he was also an outstanding defender later in his career. His passing was average at best, and his rebounding was as well. He was nowhere near the all around athlete like Wilt, or Danny Ainge for that matter, who actually made it to the majors in baseball, was an All-American in football, and was a scratch golfer, too. Wilt, Kareem, and Russell could dominate games from the middle, as well as from both ends of the court. Robertson and West were better all around guards than MJ, Magic and Bird made their teammates so much better with their unselfish, team-first play, and Dr. J was more exciting to watch in his prime. The best all around player I saw in the NBA was Elgin Baylor, who blew out his knee after 5 or 6 seasons, before arthroscopic surgery was the norm. His first 5 or 6 years stats are incredible, and he was executing the Euro-step 50 years before James Harden. For sheer talent, I'd have to tip my hat to Pete Maravich.
 
Jordan was good, but not the 'greatest player of all time'. He is the most famous, most publicized, most culturally saturated player of all time, but for people who know basketball..he was just in the right place at the right time to become the face of the marketing game. Everyone wants to talk about his 6 titles.......Oooh! Russell had what? 9, 10, 11? For Pete's sake, Robert Horry has 7 or 8, does that make him the GOAT, lol! Jordan would be in the lower half of my top ten for a variety of reasons.
Say what? So, just because Russell won more championships, he was better? Playing on a better team makes you a better individual player? You are sticking with that? BS. You are just trying to be contrarian and play the "young people don't know real sports" card. Jordan was the best ever not just because he hung a bunch of banners, it was the way he did it. He was unstoppable. He could have had more championships if he didn't go off on his little baseball dream for a couple years, but the thing that made him the greatest was the way he transformed the sport. Russell played as valuable, effective part of an unstoppable team. During a time when the game was much different. Jordan changed the whole sport into a high- flying acrobatics act when he was younger, and made everyone before him realize they were not doing it right. Now, everybody who plays the game is just trying to copy him. I don't see a bunch of kids out there saying "I want to box out and get bounds like Russell"!
 
MJ to me is one of the best and worst things to happen to the NBA. Best because after Magic and Bird brought the league as far as they did. MJ brought it even further. Worst because "everyone wants to be like MIKE". Everyone wanted to dunk and forgot how to shoot the ball. Which really showed during international play. But back to the question, if MJ was the GOAT....why id it take him 7 years to win his first RING??? But he would be in my top 3.
 
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Say what? So, just because Russell won more championships, he was better? Playing on a better team makes you a better individual player? You are sticking with that? BS. You are just trying to be contrarian and play the "young people don't know real sports" card. Jordan was the best ever not just because he hung a bunch of banners, it was the way he did it. He was unstoppable. He could have had more championships if he didn't go off on his little baseball dream for a couple years, but the thing that made him the greatest was the way he transformed the sport. Russell played as valuable, effective part of an unstoppable team. During a time when the game was much different. Jordan changed the whole sport into a high- flying acrobatics act when he was younger, and made everyone before him realize they were not doing it right. Now, everybody who plays the game is just trying to copy him. I don't see a bunch of kids out there saying "I want to box out and get bounds like Russell"!

I'm pretty sure he's saying that number of rings is not a good way to measure it. He just brought that up because so many of the Jordan fans constantly harp on the 6-0 in Finals appearances. That's why he cited Robert Horry, rings don't make a player great in team sport.
 
If we are talking about overall impact on the game....GOAT
If we are talking talent only...top 5

I don't think there are many (or any) GOAT's out there in any sport...always arguments can be made about the era they played, championships, etc.

I thought Tiger Woods was going to be a hands down GOAT but, that is not playing out either
 
For all you mid-30's to mid-40's guys who just had to get the first pair of those patent leather Jordan shoes each year, here's food for thought, lol. First I didn't say your childhood hero was bad, just overrated! 1) The 90's were the decade when the NBA was at it's weakest. Look it up-more teams had abysmal records in that watered down expansion decade than any other. 2) When MJ retired after 1993 to try to play baseball, the Bulls only lost 2 more games the next year without him. Previous poster was correct. Nike and Gatorade made Jordan famous, but Scotty Pippen made him a winner! MJ was a great offensive player with the ball and he was also an outstanding defender later in his career. His passing was average at best, and his rebounding was as well. He was nowhere near the all around athlete like Wilt, or Danny Ainge for that matter, who actually made it to the majors in baseball, was an All-American in football, and was a scratch golfer, too. Wilt, Kareem, and Russell could dominate games from the middle, as well as from both ends of the court. Robertson and West were better all around guards than MJ, Magic and Bird made their teammates so much better with their unselfish, team-first play, and Dr. J was more exciting to watch in his prime. The best all around player I saw in the NBA was Elgin Baylor, who blew out his knee after 5 or 6 seasons, before arthroscopic surgery was the norm. His first 5 or 6 years stats are incredible, and he was executing the Euro-step 50 years before James Harden. For sheer talent, I'd have to tip my hat to Pete Maravich.

Right, the bulls only lost two more games when Jordan played baseball. They also got bounced out of the playoffs promptly, which a pretty damn big caveat that you left out. It also makes your theory suspect.

How old are you by the way? It's very curious that use "lol" and other millennial gibberish, but then you talk about basketball as if you witnessed it over the past 45 years.
 
There are some really odd opinions on this topic. It's odd that nearly all experts (loosely used term in some cases) consider MJ the GOAT...but some random guys consider themselves more informed or insightful.
Jordan was: the best player of his era, the best scorer of his era (and one of the best all time), one of the best defenders of his era, one of the best rebounders and passers at his position, was the best player on 6 championship teams, and, pre-Pippen (I love Pipen. Very underrated, and one of the top second-bananas of all time) Jordan dragged some absolutely awful Bulls teams to the playoffs. That should be the first qualifier of greatness: can you take any dreadful roster to the post-season.
One reason it took 7 years to win a title was of course, his teammates. You aren't winning anything if Orlando Woolridge is your second best player. Another reason: look at who was winning titles back then. Bird's Celtics, Magic and Kareem's Lakers, the 76ers, the Pistons. The league was deep at that time.
 
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I stand by everything I stated. Jordan was certainly not the first high-flying dunk artist in the NBA. Connie Hawkins, Elgin Baylor, Julius Erving and several others preceded him by two decades. The reason some of you believe that MJ was the unquestioned greatest is because of TV saturation and savvy marketing genius. From 1985-1990, during his first 6 years in the league, he won nothing. That was a pretty strong era of great teams, like the Lakers, Celtics, Rockets, and 76er's. Did he learn how to play the game better after age 28, and six years in the league, or was it that the league was not the same in the 1990's (worst decade in NBA history)? Also, he did have a great supporting cast around him starting in 1991. As for my qualifications, people who know basketball can read between the lines and understand my point. For too many people who grew up wanting to "Be like Mike", no facts will ever convince you otherwise, I suppose.
 
I don't recall anyone calling Jordan the first dunk-artist. Maybe that's what got attention early in his career, but it isn't what defined him.
Thanks for telling me that my opinion is based on TV and marketing. I'd have never figured out the subliminal influences.
Most (not all, but most) players who LEAD their team to NBA titles aren't doing so in their early 20s during the last 35 years. I think Bird was 25 or 26. Magic played with 3 Hall of Famers when he won his first.
And, I never was Jordan fan. Quite the contrary. Other than pulling for his teams against the Pistons in the Eastern Conference Finals, I don't think I ever pulled for a Bulls team in the post-season.
Also, I LOVE your "people who know basketball can read between the lines and understand my point." I'll translate that for you: Since my argument is weak, I'll try to convince anyone who doesn't agree with me that they just don't know basketball...and I'll make some comment about "reading between the lines" to try to confuse them, as they wonder what they missed.
I can understand how someone would consider another player to be the GOAT. It is an opinion. But, putting MJ in the 7-10 range? That's laughable.
 
I don't recall anyone calling Jordan the first dunk-artist. Maybe that's what got attention early in his career, but it isn't what defined him.
Thanks for telling me that my opinion is based on TV and marketing. I'd have never figured out the subliminal influences.
Most (not all, but most) players who LEAD their team to NBA titles aren't doing so in their early 20s during the last 35 years. I think Bird was 25 or 26. Magic played with 3 Hall of Famers when he won his first.
And, I never was Jordan fan. Quite the contrary. Other than pulling for his teams against the Pistons in the Eastern Conference Finals, I don't think I ever pulled for a Bulls team in the post-season.
Also, I LOVE your "people who know basketball can read between the lines and understand my point." I'll translate that for you: Since my argument is weak, I'll try to convince anyone who doesn't agree with me that they just don't know basketball...and I'll make some comment about "reading between the lines" to try to confuse them, as they wonder what they missed.
I can understand how someone would consider another player to be the GOAT. It is an opinion. But, putting MJ in the 7-10 range? That's laughable.
Obviously, you didn't take the time to read the entire thread. Feel free to laugh, but isn't it interesting that a lot of MJ's peers, who played with and against him, don't consider him the GOAT? Thanks for your attempted translation...which was totally erroneous. Hey, that's OK, because you can't produce any irrefutable facts proving MJ is the greatest of all time. It's all about perspective, and I've seen several that I believe are better.
 
Which of his many peers are you talking about? You can'ts claim random unnamed sources as fact. Yes, it is perspective and opinion. And mine is that you lost any sense of credibility claiming that MJ barely makes your top 10. Wilt and Russell played in an era where they only faced reasonable opposition once every 7 games. Oscar? By all accounts, he alienated nearly every teammate he ever had in the NBA, and his psyche was nearly broken by the racism he encountered as a pro. Magic and Bird? Great offensive players, and good defensively in the "Team" sense, but there is a reason they always were assigned the weakest assignment possible. Kareem? Good choice.
 
Irrefutable facts? Is there some basketball metric that you're using that is provable with mathematical certainty? Right.
 
Snow... you cant talk sense to a guy who says Jordan barely makes his top ten.

Especially when he states it as FACT.
 
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Which of his many peers are you talking about? You can'ts claim random unnamed sources as fact. Yes, it is perspective and opinion. And mine is that you lost any sense of credibility claiming that MJ barely makes your top 10. Wilt and Russell played in an era where they only faced reasonable opposition once every 7 games. Oscar? By all accounts, he alienated nearly every teammate he ever had in the NBA, and his psyche was nearly broken by the racism he encountered as a pro. Magic and Bird? Great offensive players, and good defensively in the "Team" sense, but there is a reason they always were assigned the weakest assignment possible. Kareem? Good choice.
Wilt and Russell played when the NBA talent was not diluted by too many bad teams....don't know where you came up with that 7 game stuff. Yes, Oscar was almost as big of an ass toward his teammates as Jordan, but he did average a triple double over his first five NBA seasons, so that gets my attention. Magic and Bird were far better passers than MJ because Jordan rarely passed! None of Jordan's teammates ever admitted that he made them better while playing the game, but he did bully and threaten at practice. Kareem and Baylor are probably the most underrated, under appreciated players in NBA history. As for Jordan, I'll name 5 Lakers that I would rather have than MJ. West, Kobey, Baylor, Kareem, Wilt. By the way, I'm not a Laker's fan.
 
Wilt and Russell played when the NBA talent was not diluted by too many bad teams....don't know where you came up with that 7 game stuff. Yes, Oscar was almost as big of an ass toward his teammates as Jordan, but he did average a triple double over his first five NBA seasons, so that gets my attention. Magic and Bird were far better passers than MJ because Jordan rarely passed! None of Jordan's teammates ever admitted that he made them better while playing the game, but he did bully and threaten at practice. Kareem and Baylor are probably the most underrated, under appreciated players in NBA history. As for Jordan, I'll name 5 Lakers that I would rather have than MJ. West, Kobey, Baylor, Kareem, Wilt. By the way, I'm not a Laker's fan.
Wilt and Russell also played when the league was overrun with moderately athletic white guys. There were very few quality centers in the game at that time...thats where the 7 game thing comes in.
Stat-guys love Oscar. His were great. He won what, 1 NBA title when paired with Lew Alcindor? Still, he's one of the top 10 ever.
5 Lakers over MJ. See, now I can't even take you seriously. I think you are trolling.
Jerry West was great, but I've never heard anyone argue him over MJ, and for a good reason. Kobe? Again, top 10, but no NBA executive would take Kobe over MJ. Same goes for Baylor and Wilt.
 
"As for Jordan, I'll name 5 Lakers that I would rather have than MJ. West, Kobey, Baylor, Kareem, Wilt."

Everyone can now ignore this guy.
 
"As for Jordan, I'll name 5 Lakers that I would rather have than MJ. West, Kobey, Baylor, Kareem, Wilt."

Everyone can now ignore this guy.
...

but, but, , his quotes are so funny, don't take that from me, I have very little
 
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