OT: When coaches take the blame for doing a crappy job

[GarnetBeamer]

Just curious to see how others feel about this. My interpretation varies wildly by coach.

When you hear Nick Saban speak after a rare Alabama loss and he says he did a lousy job, it just strikes me differently than when someone like, say, Muschamp says the same thing. With Saban, it comes across as a coach who is striving for perfection, whereas from Muschamp it came across as a coach who was just trying to figure things out. And, with Saban, you don't ever REALLY believe he did a bad job. I guess, obviously, my opinion is impacted by the source of the statement.

I just dunno how I feel overall when coaches "man up" after a loss or a bad season and seem to shoulder the blame by saying they did a bad job. On the one hand, you can say they're being a man and taking full responsibility. On the other hand, it seems this approach has almost become a get out jail free card.

I guess maybe my view on this approach by coaches is tainted because we heard this from Muschamp about a hundred times every season. "We gotta do a better job as coaches." After hearing it the 20th time, you just wanna scream "well, start doing it!"

When Frank said in his presser yesterday that he did a lousy job, I had conflicting feelings. My first thought was "well, hey, at least he's manning up and taking the blame and not dodging criticism." On the other hand, I had flashbacks to Muschamp.

It can also come across as just a way to head off criticism at the pass.

 

[Bubbaglide]

If Frank feels he did such a lousy job, is he returning any salary for his work or lack thereof?

 

[rodemi]

Saban always takes the blame for poor performance , as did Spurrier when he was here. The Alabama defense was poor early last year, and the opposite by year end. Saban is directly involved on both sides of the ball. Just ask those who played for him.

 

[USC2USC]

Just curious to see how others feel about this. My interpretation varies wildly by coach.

When you hear Nick Saban speak after a rare Alabama loss and he says he did a lousy job, it just strikes me differently than when someone like, say, Muschamp says the same thing. With Saban, it comes across as a coach who is striving for perfection, whereas from Muschamp it came across as a coach who was just trying to figure things out. And, with Saban, you don't ever REALLY believe he did a bad job. I guess, obviously, my opinion is impacted by the source of the statement.

I just dunno how I feel overall when coaches "man up" after a loss or a bad season and seem to shoulder the blame by saying they did a bad job. On the one hand, you can say they're being a man and taking full responsibility. On the other hand, it seems this approach has almost become a get out jail free card.

I guess maybe my view on this approach by coaches is tainted because we heard this from Muschamp about a hundred times every season. "We gotta do a better job as coaches." After hearing it the 20th time, you just wanna scream "well, start doing it!"

When Frank said in his presser yesterday that he did a lousy job, I had conflicting feelings. My first thought was "well, hey, at least he's manning up and taking the blame and not dodging criticism." On the other hand, I had flashbacks to Muschamp.

It can also come across as just a way to head off criticism at the pass.

Interesting question. When I hear a coach make these comments, for me it how it lands totally depends on who is saying it.

When Saban says it, I think well cool of him to be accountable but we all know he is an elite coach and if it led to a loss it will be a rare one and I am glad we dont play them next week.

When a coach like Muschamp says it (or maybe now even Martin), i find it more annoying. Yes, they are accepting some accountability but as you hear it you also know they may not be the one (or be able to) turn it around to make sure it doesnt happen again. I also feel like may times when mediocre coaches make this statement, it is quickly followed with excuses. Martin's comments yesterday about lack of support for his program or the office piece smacks of excuse making and considering the moment and the weeks leading up to that press conference, really ticked me off.

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

If Frank feels he did such a lousy job, is he returning any salary for his work or lack thereof?

Yes. He took a pay cut last year like all of our coaches

 

[Dizzy01]

When Saban says it you do believe it was a rare circumstance and he’s probably right and it will be corrected.

When Muschamp says it you don’t feel the same way because he says it so much. At a certain point you realize he isn’t doing a crappy job by his standards he’s just a crappy coach.

I’m not there with Martin yet. He’s had success before so maybe he really has just had some bad performances and can turn it around. That said he’s a lot closer to the Muschamp level now.

 

[viennacocks]

Just curious to see how others feel about this. My interpretation varies wildly by coach.

When you hear Nick Saban speak after a rare Alabama loss and he says he did a lousy job, it just strikes me differently than when someone like, say, Muschamp says the same thing. With Saban, it comes across as a coach who is striving for perfection, whereas from Muschamp it came across as a coach who was just trying to figure things out. And, with Saban, you don't ever REALLY believe he did a bad job. I guess, obviously, my opinion is impacted by the source of the statement.

I just dunno how I feel overall when coaches "man up" after a loss or a bad season and seem to shoulder the blame by saying they did a bad job. On the one hand, you can say they're being a man and taking full responsibility. On the other hand, it seems this approach has almost become a get out jail free card.

I guess maybe my view on this approach by coaches is tainted because we heard this from Muschamp about a hundred times every season. "We gotta do a better job as coaches." After hearing it the 20th time, you just wanna scream "well, start doing it!"

When Frank said in his presser yesterday that he did a lousy job, I had conflicting feelings. My first thought was "well, hey, at least he's manning up and taking the blame and not dodging criticism." On the other hand, I had flashbacks to Muschamp.

It can also come across as just a way to head off criticism at the pass.

Did you hear Geno Auriemma from Uconn after this year's NCAA tournament loss? Blamed it on his girls and their immaturity. I don't think you would ever hear this from Saban. He takes the responsibility for knocking the immaturity out if his players.

I like when a coach takes responsibility but I want to know what he/she is going to do differently going forward.

 

[fowl_mood]

It depends on how many times and for what span of time he says it. If it's a game, great. If it's a season, not so great. I've been hesitant to give him the covid excuse card, but now that we have him, he can trade it for one more year with a tournament appearance.

I'll give Beamer a few "my faults" because he's inexperienced and we knew that. Muschamp, though, literally had no excuses for claiming repetitive failures. Of course, we hired him knowing his past, so that was on us.

Bottom line...new, catastrophic illness, occasional failure....admit it, then perform. Multiple admitted failures ...move on.

 

[Bubbaglide]

Yes. He took a pay cut last year like all of our coaches

No that was an across the board cut for Covid. IS he giving money back for a crappy job performance. ? Like maybe half at least?

 

[titaniumspur]

Leaders are paid for cause and effect. Saban will typically tell you exactly what he did wrong because he knows. I am not sure Muschamp or Martin know. Martin should know by now what personality types will stay on the team, for example. Any success Frank has had is starting to look like an accidental alignment of variables that he was not controlling.

 

[USC2USC]

Did you hear Geno Auriemma from Uconn after this year's NCAA tournament loss? Blamed it on his girls and their immaturity. I don't think you would ever hear this from Saban. He takes the responsibility for knocking the immaturity out if his players.

I like when a coach takes responsibility but I want to know what he/she is going to do differently going forward.

That's a good point. I know no one can argue with Geno's success at UCONN but from my point of view, he seems like a real jerk.

 

[viennacocks]

That's a good point. I know no one can argue with Geno's success at UCONN but from my point of view, he seems like a real jerk.

100% agree. You protect your players by taking the bullets.

 

[F-86F]

Yes. He took a pay cut last year like all of our coaches

He took the pay cut because of the pandemic. His job performance had nothing to do with it and I’m sure you are aware of that.

 

[bucketdad]

If you're gonna use that statement more than once, you better have shown at some point you know what you are doing and have had a high level of success in the past. IMO, that statement (if used more than once) should be reserved for the best coaches... for the most part. Frank using it as a review of the season is fine because that's a natural time for evaluation. Saban using it at will is fine too because it's no secret he's a great coach. Muschamp using it time and again leaves me with the impression he thinks he's better than he is and can afford to offer that as an excuse. He isn't, and he can't. For him, it was a boneheaded thing to keep saying... and he would have been better off keeping his mouth shut. My 2 cents.

 

[bchav307]

It’s not about if he takes blame or not that you should judge them on. Do they make any changes in themselves if it truly was on them? Muschamp never once made a change in himself and how he was a head coach from the time he landed the Florida job until he was fired here.
In anything you do, you can take blame for failures, but if you don’t make changes in yourself, it’s all just lip service. Show me the changes and then I’ll judge your acceptance of blame.

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

He took the pay cut because of the pandemic. His job performance had nothing to do with it and I’m sure you are aware of that.

I am. Just stating the fact he did take a pay cut. He is not some greedy dead beat or something... He has a contract that states he has to be paid a certain amount. It is completely asinine to imply he should have to pay the University back because of the results of last season. In my line of work, it has become more difficult to make as many sales due to covid. Should bankers or financial advisors take lower salaries because they cannot meet with clients and close as much business? My incentives are already lower... So not a direct correlation, but he is missing out on any performance incentives a contract may hold already, took a 10% pay cut willingly like all of our coaches... The notion he should pay back money he made in accordance with a contract signed by all parties is just silly.

 

[gamecox4982]

In my world when you do a lousy job you should be demoted or terminated.

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

In my world when you do a lousy job you should be demoted or terminated.

In any job that is directly tied to performance- you have ups and downs. If I have been a top performer in sales for instance, and then have a bad quarter at some point down the road, I would hope my employer would look at my body of work and not be so judgmental about a little bad run, especially if there are extenuating circumstances like health issues or a global pandemic that made it harder to produce or literally left you unable to go to work. Martin had both personal health issues and pandemic related work stoppages that produced results that were not congruent with his normal performance. He HAS been a “Top performer” previously and even in the seasons where he was not tying/breaking records for win totals or taking us on the best post season run in school history, he has normally had winning seasons and done well in conference play. It is not realistic to ignore his previous body of work, his personal health issues and the play stoppages due to covid and just fire the man for a bad season. I get fans are upset and maybe “in yiur world” you think it should work that way, but in the real world it would be beyond calloused to toss him out on his ass with the total circumstances considered IMO.

I think we all know last season was garbage, and we also all know (including Martin) that anything similar to last season in the coming year will be the end of his tenure here... but I also feel people who are being reasonable understand why he was retained and know the “extension” was theater and means nothing the way it was written.

 

[gamecox4982]

In any job that is directly tied to performance- you have ups and downs. If I have been a top performer in sales for instance, and then have a bad quarter at some point down the road, I would hope my employer would look at my body of work and not be so judgmental about a little bad run, especially if there are extenuating circumstances like health issues or a global pandemic that made it harder to produce or literally left you unable to go to work. Martin had both personal health issues and pandemic related work stoppages that produced results that were not congruent with his normal performance. He HAS been a “Top performer” previously and even in the seasons where he was not tying/breaking records for win totals or taking us on the best post season run in school history, he has normally had winning seasons and done well in conference play. It is not realistic to ignore his previous body of work, his personal health issues and the play stoppages due to covid and just fire the man for a bad season. I get fans are upset and maybe “in yiur world” you think it should work that way, but in the real world it would be beyond calloused to toss him out on his ass with the total circumstances considered IMO.

I think we all know last season was garbage, and we also all know (including Martin) that anything similar to last season in the coming year will be the end of his tenure here... but I also feel people who are being reasonable understand why he was retained and know the “extension” was theater and means nothing the if you can’t bring in dollars for the company I would find someone that will.

 

[gamecox4982]

He should have taken a LOA and had someone else coach the team that had energy and drive. Tanner should have been smart enough to recognize the problem and insisted he do this. If he would have, we would not be having a conversation on whether or not Frank should be gone.

 

[cockthehammer#]

I’m one that goes back a ways. Jim Carlen did it &...at first...it was refreshing to hear a “straight-shooter”. Paul Dietzel’s sugar-coated summaries of losses were “sickeningly sweet”. Carlen got to where he said it pretty much after each loss, though. That quickly gets tiresome, too. I can appreciate that he wanted to man up & protect his players & assistant coaches. However, having to go to it often as losses began to mount calls into question your ability to effectively lead the team/program.

 

[bucketdad]

He should have taken a LOA and had someone else coach the team that hard energy and drive. Tanner should have been smart enough to recognize the problem and insisted he do this. If he would have, we would not be having a conversation on whether or not Frank should be gone.

Never really thought about it but that would have been a darn good way to handle it.

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

He should have taken a LOA and had someone else coach the team that hard energy and drive. Tanner should have been smart enough to recognize the problem and insisted he do this. If he would have, we would not be having a conversation on whether or not Frank should be gone.

I agree. On all points... I mean there are people who hated Martin from the start and wanted him gone from day 1 who would have still wanted him fired, but I have thought often about why he did not just take a medical leave to get healthy and come back next season. Honestly- after our second break due to covid the SCHOOL should have called the rest of the season off for safety reasons. If we truly cared about player and coach safety, after the second massive issue we had with covid... You’d think that they would have bowed out. One instance... Ok, S happens. The second time though, I knew we would not come back with any chance of mounting a run- the coaches, players and everyone involved just looked lost and disinterested and I cannot blame them TBH. As a fan I certainly felt the same way... Like, what was the point??

 

[USC2USC]

He should have taken a LOA and had someone else coach the team that hard energy and drive. Tanner should have been smart enough to recognize the problem and insisted he do this. If he would have, we would not be having a conversation on whether or not Frank should be gone.

^^^^^ This all day long. I have wondered why there isnt more conversation about why he didnt step aside, take a medical leave and let one of the assistants lead the team who was healthy. Its a little puzzling. Also wonder if there was ever a meeting with Tanner where he encourage him to seriously consider that. In hindsight, it would have been in the best interest of the team and the program.

 

[Silver_Coconut]

That's a good point. I know no one can argue with Geno's success at UCONN but from my point of view, he seems like a real jerk.

The guys been coaching women for 35 years. If he’s a jerk, we would know by now.

 

[atlanta cock#]

Yes. He took a pay cut last year like all of our coaches

And was still grossly overpaid. Can’t wait for him to be gone.

 

[uscg1984]

Coaches are like anyone else who takes responsibility for when they screw up. When one of your best employees acknowledges that a particular job wasnt their best work, you assess what went wrong, you learn from it, and move on. When one of your worst employees acknowledges, yet again, that they screwed up, you appreciate their honesty, but you know it's par for the course and nothing's ever really going to change with them. To me, that is the difference between when Saban or Spurrier take the blame for a loss vs when Muschamp or Martin acknowledge their failures.

 

[alphazeta]

Just curious to see how others feel about this. My interpretation varies wildly by coach.

When you hear Nick Saban speak after a rare Alabama loss and he says he did a lousy job, it just strikes me differently than when someone like, say, Muschamp says the same thing. With Saban, it comes across as a coach who is striving for perfection, whereas from Muschamp it came across as a coach who was just trying to figure things out. And, with Saban, you don't ever REALLY believe he did a bad job. I guess, obviously, my opinion is impacted by the source of the statement.

I just dunno how I feel overall when coaches "man up" after a loss or a bad season and seem to shoulder the blame by saying they did a bad job. On the one hand, you can say they're being a man and taking full responsibility. On the other hand, it seems this approach has almost become a get out jail free card.

I guess maybe my view on this approach by coaches is tainted because we heard this from Muschamp about a hundred times every season. "We gotta do a better job as coaches." After hearing it the 20th time, you just wanna scream "well, start doing it!"

When Frank said in his presser yesterday that he did a lousy job, I had conflicting feelings. My first thought was "well, hey, at least he's manning up and taking the blame and not dodging criticism." On the other hand, I had flashbacks to Muschamp.

It can also come across as just a way to head off criticism at the pass.

Bear Bryant put it best: "If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, we did it. If anything goes really good, then you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games for you."

 

[lilburncock]

Yes. He took a pay cut last year like all of our coaches

Those cuts had nothing to do with job performance.

 

[USC2USC]

The guys been coaching women for 35 years. If he’s a jerk, we would know by now.

Who is "we"? Some folks think he is a jerk, some don't. Thats how opinions work.

 

[Silver_Coconut]

Who is "we"? Some folks think he is a jerk, some don't. Thats how opinions work.

Ok

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

Those cuts had nothing to do with job performance.

Just stating the fact he did take a pay cut. He is not some greedy dead beat or something... He has a contract that states he has to be paid a certain amount. It is completely asinine to imply he should have to pay the University back because of the results of last season. In my line of work, it has become more difficult to make as many sales due to covid. Should bankers or financial advisors take lower salaries because they cannot meet with clients and close as much business? My incentives are already lower... So not a direct correlation, but he is missing out on any performance incentives a contract may hold already, took a 10% pay cut willingly like all of our coaches... The notion he should pay back money he made in accordance with a contract signed by all parties is just silly.

 

[byrdman#]

^^^^^ This all day long. I have wondered why there isnt more conversation about why he didnt step aside, take a medical leave and let one of the assistants lead the team who was healthy. Its a little puzzling. Also wonder if there was ever a meeting with Tanner where he encourage him to seriously consider that. In hindsight, it would have been in the best interest of the team and the program.

This is one of those no win topics. If he takes a LOA and the team still proceeds to go 6-15, many would have said left his team knowing they were going to suck. Many around the country said the same thing about Coach K when he threw Pete Gaudet under the bus in 1995 when having back surgery.

Too many times in society, machismo is viewed from a fantasy perspective as opposed to reality. Realistically, Frank should have taken care of himself first with his extenuating issues, got a clean bill of health and then returned. Ray Tanner as a boss should have helped lay that out for him. It is hard to help others when not you are not healthy yourself.

 

[GMCCK97nHTWN]

Just curious to see how others feel about this. My interpretation varies wildly by coach.

When you hear Nick Saban speak after a rare Alabama loss and he says he did a lousy job, it just strikes me differently than when someone like, say, Muschamp says the same thing. With Saban, it comes across as a coach who is striving for perfection, whereas from Muschamp it came across as a coach who was just trying to figure things out. And, with Saban, you don't ever REALLY believe he did a bad job. I guess, obviously, my opinion is impacted by the source of the statement.

I just dunno how I feel overall when coaches "man up" after a loss or a bad season and seem to shoulder the blame by saying they did a bad job. On the one hand, you can say they're being a man and taking full responsibility. On the other hand, it seems this approach has almost become a get out jail free card.

I guess maybe my view on this approach by coaches is tainted because we heard this from Muschamp about a hundred times every season. "We gotta do a better job as coaches." After hearing it the 20th time, you just wanna scream "well, start doing it!"

When Frank said in his presser yesterday that he did a lousy job, I had conflicting feelings. My first thought was "well, hey, at least he's manning up and taking the blame and not dodging criticism." On the other hand, I had flashbacks to Muschamp.

It can also come across as just a way to head off criticism at the pass.

Meaningless. Trite. Embarrassing.

Responsibility with no accountability.

The Magoo model of AD “leadership”.

 

[Neanderthal]

Genoa’s huge ego won’t let him take the blame for anything.

 

[1SGgamecock]

Let's face it, sometimes the athletes just don't measure up to the competition, and the coach takes blame to take the heat off the players......js

 

[USC2USC]

This is one of those no win topics. If he takes a LOA and the team still proceeds to go 6-15, many would have said left his team knowing they were going to suck. Many around the country said the same thing about Coach K when he threw Pete Gaudet under the bus in 1995 when having back surgery.

Too many times in society, machismo is viewed from a fantasy perspective as opposed to reality. Realistically, Frank should have taken care of himself first with his extenuating issues, got a clean bill of health and then returned. Ray Tanner as a boss should have helped lay that out for him. It is hard to help others when not you are not healthy yourself.

I agree. And what makes covid different too is that if you are around you risk exposing others. The school kept the Frank covid situation pretty quiet. Dont think anyone knows if he exposed other players, coaches, etc. If Tanner wouldnt do it, seems like university HR would have some guidelines around this. I know my company does. If anyone at our company tests positive or thinks they have been exposed, they get 14 days off work with pay and dont have to take vacation time. They can only return after a negative test and we have been granting medical LOAs left and write to people that had covid and are now experiencing long haul symptoms.

 

[byrdman#]

I agree. And what makes covid different too is that if you are around you risk exposing others. The school kept the Frank covid situation pretty quiet. Dont think anyone knows if he exposed other players, coaches, etc. If Tanner wouldnt do it, seems like university HR would have some guidelines around this. I know my company does. If anyone at our company tests positive or thinks they have been exposed, they get 14 days off work with pay and dont have to take vacation time. They can only return after a negative test and we have been granting medical LOAs left and write to people that had covid and are now experiencing long haul symptoms.

Covid is a medical condition and would have to be reported within HIPAA laws. Therefore, the media is restricted on available information based on what Frank and the university wanted out there.

 

[midline]

Most coaches seem to fall on the sword, at least publicly, when losses happen. In Frank's case I am sure he is just admitting what everyone has easily noticed. The difference is that most coaches are most always talking about one game. Frank is talking about a while year. But what does he have to fear from admitting he did a crappy job coaching? Most coaches would be fired if in his shoes. He got an extension. Guess he can say pretty much anything he wants at this point.