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Regarding recruiting rankings/national titles

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NooNoo

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Jan 27, 2002
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good read https://www.outkickthecoverage.com/top-ten-signing-classes-are-necessary-for-national-titles-020515/

Since 1998 every team that has won a national title except for Oklahoma in 2000 has had at least two top ten national signing classes in the four years before a title. So while signing a top ten recruiting class doesn’t guarantee that you’re going to win a national title — indeed, there are plenty of teams that don’t — for most of the past generation, you can’t win a title without at least two top ten recruiting classes. More interestingly, every champion from the past nine years with the exception of Auburn in 2010 has had at least three top ten recruiting classes in the four years before it won a title.

I used Rivals recruiting rankings because the class rankings database is available going back to 2002. Then I tried to Google search to find class rankings for the teams before the database existed. (For instance, I was able to find that 1998 champion Tennessee’s 1994 class ranked second overall, that its 1996 class ranked third and that its 1997 class ranked fifth.) I stopped at 1998 because the data was hard to come by and because my assumption — which I couldn’t verify through online research — was that Nebraska’s title teams didn’t rank that highly when it came to recruiting. That’s because Nebraska under Tom Osborne ran a unique attack that wasn’t reliant upon the same kind of players that the rest of the top teams were recruiting. If anyone has access to old recruiting class rankings, I’d love to be more specific with my data from before 2002.

I went back and did this research because of all the Tweets about how “stars don’t matter,” and random Twitter examples of two and three star athletes who have become stars in the NFL. Sure, stars may not matter for individual players — that is, being a five star doesn’t guarantee that a specific player will be a high draft pick — but the teams that sign the most four and five stars are typically the best in the country. That’s because recruiting is essentially a game of probability. the more top players you get into your program the more chances you have to develop elite first round talent. Nearly half of all five stars will be drafted. Around one percent of all two stars will be drafted. All things being equal, the more four and five stars your team signs, the better they’ll be.

While much was made of the fact that no five stars played in this year’s Super Bowl, there were 15 five stars playing in college football’s title game. Put simply, stars matter. And with all the recruiting competition and the focus being brought to bear on top players, arguably recruiting analysis is becoming even better. Each of the last four champions, Alabama twice, Florida State, and Ohio State have had four consecutive top ten classes (Ohio State’s 2009 class was a composite top ten) in the year before they won a national title.

So how have the title teams recruited in the BCS era. Here’s the best data I could cobble together. If you have additional information on the older classes, I’d love to see it:

(UPDATE: One of our readers, Larry Smith, has stored Rivals recruiting rankings going all the way back to 1993, the first year they ever existed. It turns out, even Nebraska recruited well.)

1995 Nebraska (#15 in 1993,#5 in 1995)

1996 Florida (#6 in 1993, #2 in 1995)

1997 Nebraska/Michigan (Nebraska #5 in 1995 and number #9 in 1996 Michigan: #4 in 1994, #7 in 1995, #8 in 1996, #4 in 1997)

1998 Tennessee (#7 in 1998, #5 in 1997, #3 in 1996)

1999 Florida State (#5 in 1998, #1 in 1997, #5 in 1996)

2000 Oklahoma (#13 in 2000, and #25 in both 1997 and 1998 Rivals) *OU is the only program without a top ten class to win the title in Rivals history. But it did have 3 top 25 classes

2001 Miami (#2 in 2001, #9 in 2000, #8 in 1999)

2002 Ohio State (#7 in 2002, #4 in 2000, #2 in 1999)

2003 LSU/USC (LSU #1 class in 2003, #4 in 2001 USC #3 in 2003, #14 in 2000, #21 in 2001)

2004 USC (#3 class in 2003, #1 class in 2004)

2005 Texas (#1 class in 2002, #15 class in 2003 with only 18 recruits, which averaged highest star rating in country, #18 class in 2004 — only signed 15) If Texas had signed 20 players in either of these classes, they would have ranked in the top five. The #1 class in 2002 was simply too large, with over 30 players).

2006 Florida (#2 in 2003, #10 in 2004, #2 in 2006)

2007 LSU (#1 in 2003, #1 in 2004, #7 in 2006, #4 in 2007)

2008 Florida (#2 in 2006, #1 in 2007, #3 in 2008)

2009 Alabama (#10 in 2007, #1 in 2008, #1 in 2009)

2010 Auburn (#10 in 2006, #7 in 2007, #4 in 2010) Auburn was #20 in 2008 and #19 in 2009

2011 Alabama (#1 in 2008, #1 in 2009, #5 in 2010, #1 in 2011)

2012 Alabama (#1 in 2009, #5 in 2010, #1 in 2011, #1 in 2012)

2013 Florida State (#7 in 2009, #10 in 2010, #2 in 2011, #6 in 2012, #10 in 2013)

2014 Ohio State (#11 in 2011, #4 in 2012, #2 in 2013, #3 in 2014)

As you can see, football success has followed recruiting success.

Add all this up and the past twenty national champions have averaged 2.8 top ten classes in the four years before they won a title. So now that the 2015 recruiting classes are complete, which teams have two or more top ten recruiting classes in the four years before the start of the 2015 season? Recent history suggests your national champion will be one of these eleven teams:

4 top ten classes: Alabama, Ohio State, Florida State, and Auburn

3 top ten classes: USC, Florida, and LSU

2 top ten classes: Georgia, Tennessee, Michigan and Texas A&M

The next time someone tells you stars don’t matter, just reply: You’re right, I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that all but one team that’s won a national title since 1995 has had at least two top ten classes in the four years before its title.
 
I took a look at last years National Champion. Who's name shall not be repeated.

Rivals rankings...
2013 #14
2014 #13
2015 #4
2016 #6

That article was spot on.
 
I read the post until I got to the part about about 50% of 5 star players are drifted my question is why not all of them if they make that kind of an impact. A 5 star player 10 years ago might be a 4 star or less now with the talent and strength present day players bring. To argue that you have to have good recruiting classes to be successful is like saying you have to hold your breath under water...of course you have to. My question is what exactly do we expect from our coach right now? Muschamp just got started and I'm sure he knows how important recruiting is that's why we hired him. Give the dude time and he will improve the football program and I'm judging from what I'm seeing now not what he can do. Do we need good players (check and obvious) are we getting some good ones (check). Who cares about 1000 word rants about how important recruiting is we all know.
 
I read the post until I got to the part about about 50% of 5 star players are drifted my question is why not all of them if they make that kind of an impact. A 5 star player 10 years ago might be a 4 star or less now with the talent and strength present day players bring. To argue that you have to have good recruiting classes to be successful is like saying you have to hold your breath under water...of course you have to. My question is what exactly do we expect from our coach right now? Muschamp just got started and I'm sure he knows how important recruiting is that's why we hired him. Give the dude time and he will improve the football program and I'm judging from what I'm seeing now not what he can do. Do we need good players (check and obvious) are we getting some good ones (check). Who cares about 1000 word rants about how important recruiting is we all know.

I think you missed his point - "recruiting is essentially a game of probability"

Every player who commits to us, you are very positive on - best film you've ever seen, etc. And you know what, I salute you for the consistently positive attitude. For the individual student athlete who has chosen to come to Carolina, he deserves our optimism and support, regardless of star ratings.

But, it is fair to look at the collective group and their average ratings and critique coaches who make millions. That is fair game. NooNoo did a very solid job using data to show it matters. It matters in a huge way if we wish to compete with the schools around us who recruit at an elite level.

Individual vs. Group - leave individuals alone, wish them all the best and welcome them to the family. Critique a class and the coaches. I think this is a reasonable approach.
 
People who stick their heads in the sand and say recruiting rankings don't matter are delusional . It is THE single most important factor . Sure there are 2 stars that play like 5 stars and 5 stars that play like no stars . However I'll take a class full of 5 stars !! Those who don't agree can look and see that the only sustained success we ever had was with guys like Clowney (5star) , Marcus (5star) , Alshon(4star), Gilmore(4 star) , Hollomon (4 star) , Mike Davis (4 star) etc.. Sure we had big time overachievers like Shaw , Ingram, Swearinger also but stars Always matter .
 
Most reasonable people know that it is better to have higher rated players generally over less rated ones. However...that is not the question that most often comes under debate. What we are talking about is every time we get a recruit...there is someone that criticizes it because it is not rated as highly as everyone would love to see. The day might come when we are able to fill every spot with a 4 or 5 star recruit...but we are not there and at any given time only a few programs are.

A program can still be very good..even great with more 3 stars than 4...look to programs like TCU, Mizzou and Louisville. We have to build before we run like the best of the best. I wonder if a large portion of those fan bases bitch every time they land a 3 star recruit? Now we are actually better suited than all those programs to become a powerhouse but we still have to build before we can excel to our to our potential. Yes it is recruiting that is what puts you over the top but before you get to that point....it is coaching up and blue collar recruits.

Believe it or not Nick Saban did not start out at Alabama with a fist full of 5 stars. He built it on great evaluations and good hard coaching of a bunch...hold your breath...the same type and level of recruits we are getting now.
 
I think there is not much difference between the #15 class and the #35 class. 1 class could have 13 5.8 4 stars and the other have 13 5.7 3 stars.
 
Man, you are about to get blasted for posting factual information on this board.

I guess I missed something. Is there an argument in regards to whether muschamp can recruit or not?

Best I can tell he is recruiting the same as spurrier minus 2 5stars in Lattimore and Clowney.

I have always said it takes special circumstances for 5 stars to come here. Location, parenting, need, etc.

Or a better alumni network of bagmen
 
I don't think anyone here argues that recruiting doesn't matter, but some of you guys act like Muschamp and company should just wave their magic wands and make 5 star recruits appear at our doorsteps. Some guys here constantly complain about our recruiting and what Muschamp has or hasn't done so far. Maybe the guys that complain constantly should call Muschamp and give him some recruiting advice since they seem to know it all? All of our coaches are busting their butts and working harder than any staff we've ever had on the recruiting trail. Instead of bitching about recruiting misses, maybe we should celebrate the hits and the small successes.
 
I took a look at last years National Champion. Who's name shall not be repeated.

Rivals rankings...
2013 #14
2014 #13
2015 #4
2016 #6

That article was spot on.
They still needed a transcendent QB to get them over the top. You could stack similar rankings side by side lately, like LSU for example, and the one that went farther will be the one with the QB.
 
Recruiting is brutal and super competitive - there is plenty of competition out there and its not easy for any school to just magically have a good football program - look at Texas!
The minute you let up or take your foot off the gas someone will pass you by. We've got a lot of ground to make up and I assure you it wont be done overnight but the staff we have is the type you need to get this done. They work hard, they grind, they are relationship people, and that is what we need but don't expect the magic wand like mentioned above.
 
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I guess I was hoping for a top 10-15 class this year. Thought we were in position to do that.
 
Most reasonable people know that it is better to have higher rated players generally over less rated ones. However...that is not the question that most often comes under debate. What we are talking about is every time we get a recruit...there is someone that criticizes it because it is not rated as highly as everyone would love to see. The day might come when we are able to fill every spot with a 4 or 5 star recruit...but we are not there and at any given time only a few programs are.

A program can still be very good..even great with more 3 stars than 4...look to programs like TCU, Mizzou and Louisville. We have to build before we run like the best of the best. I wonder if a large portion of those fan bases bitch every time they land a 3 star recruit? Now we are actually better suited than all those programs to become a powerhouse but we still have to build before we can excel to our to our potential. Yes it is recruiting that is what puts you over the top but before you get to that point....it is coaching up and blue collar recruits.

Believe it or not Nick Saban did not start out at Alabama with a fist full of 5 stars. He built it on great evaluations and good hard coaching of a bunch...hold your breath...the same type and level of recruits we are getting now.
HEAR ! HEAR !
 
Coaching is important. But for anyone saying stars don't matter answer this.

If you had a choice of who to put on the field this year... our 2012 players or have our 2012 coaches coach?

The players made the difference. Players make a coach look better. It's why five stars have 100 offers.
 
So which programs that have averaged 35 in the recruiting rankings have won a national championship over the last 20+ years?

we average between 15-20.

has a "new team" won a championship in the last 30 years?

Lets just say i bumped any recruit who committed to the following teams a 4star....I wonder if with my eyes essentially closed to any knowledge of the player, if my "rankings" would make it look like I knew what I was doing.


Alabama
Ohio State
FSU
LSU
Florida
Nebraska
SoCal
Miami
Penn State
Texas
Oklahoma
Notre Dame

That is 45 national championships since 1960....my numbers would look very good with little or no effort.

I left out UGA, Tenn, Auburn, Washington, Colorado, BYU, Clemson, Pitt, and Michigan State...otherwise I would have hit the last 57 ncaa champs by essentially just ranking these teams in the top 20 every year.

so based on recruiting rankings, maybe we should sneak a national championship every 50 years.
 
we average between 15-20.

has a "new team" won a championship in the last 30 years?

Lets just say i bumped any recruit who committed to the following teams a 4star....I wonder if with my eyes essentially closed to any knowledge of the player, if my "rankings" would make it look like I knew what I was doing.


Alabama
Ohio State
FSU
LSU
Florida
Nebraska
SoCal
Miami
Penn State
Texas
Oklahoma
Notre Dame

That is 45 national championships since 1960....my numbers would look very good with little or no effort.

I left out UGA, Tenn, Auburn, Washington, Colorado, BYU, Clemson, Pitt, and Michigan State...otherwise I would have hit the last 57 ncaa champs by essentially just ranking these teams in the top 20 every year.

so based on recruiting rankings, maybe we should sneak a national championship every 50 years.

Hell, we haven't won the east yet.
 
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I do have to say that so far the current commitment list is slightly disappointing . Muschamps first two classes here were obviously struggles because of the mess he inherited. The elephant in the room with Muschamp at USC .... Is Muschamp this superstar recruiter or did he just build this reputation working for schools that always get those blue chip guys . Texas , Florida, and Auburn are gonna sign top 10 classes every year no matter what . If he can't do it here (and honestly no one ever has) then we are in trouble because as of yet he has not proven himself as a successful head coach . Time will tell . I feel like this class is crucial and as of right now the big fish are not going in our livewell . I understand that you gotta win to recruit at an elite level and with a National Champion in state it's a tough road . However , No one was lining up to hire Will Muschamp and he sold Tanner on one thing ..... he could raise the talent level and land those blue chip guys . He certainly deserves a pass for the first two years but from now on it's put up or shut up on the next few classes .
 
Last one was the 1996 Florida Gators. Hard to believe they only got their first 'ship 21 years ago.
Usually, and sadly as we know, once you get a first there is a second or more. The only flukes I can think of are Ga Tech and Colorado that shared title year and BYU.
 
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Coaching is important. But for anyone saying stars don't matter answer this.

If you had a choice of who to put on the field this year... our 2012 players or have our 2012 coaches coach?

The players made the difference. Players make a coach look better. It's why five stars have 100 offers.

Ding ding ding we have a winner
 
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I do have to say that so far the current commitment list is slightly disappointing . Muschamps first two classes here were obviously struggles because of the mess he inherited. The elephant in the room with Muschamp at USC .... Is Muschamp this superstar recruiter or did he just build this reputation working for schools that always get those blue chip guys . Texas , Florida, and Auburn are gonna sign top 10 classes every year no matter what . If he can't do it here (and honestly no one ever has) then we are in trouble because as of yet he has not proven himself as a successful head coach . Time will tell . I feel like this class is crucial and as of right now the big fish are not going in our livewell . I understand that you gotta win to recruit at an elite level and with a National Champion in state it's a tough road . However , No one was lining up to hire Will Muschamp and he sold Tanner on one thing ..... he could raise the talent level and land those blue chip guys . He certainly deserves a pass for the first two years but from now on it's put up or shut up on the next few classes .

I read a lot of fair intent and many of the questions you have are questions that everyone should have. I will point out that while you say he has not recruited well.....he has recruited players that have taken over many of the positions on the team. That means they beat out players with more experience and recruited under another staff that had a lot more wind at their back than Muschamp has enjoyed thus far here. That is no small feat considering that he has only had one season of play and poised for the second one now. I do not think it is a fair statement to say he can not recruit when the qb, rb, lb,saftey and cb are all positions that have completely changed over with the player he recruited and in that one and only season. That thumbprint will take a big leap in this his second year. This year will answer most reasonable questions about his ability when we see what many more of Muschamp recruits can do.

What does bother me is that people do not seem to want to wait and see what he is doing. They quickly assume he is not living up to expectations because his results have not been highly rated by people that honestly know little about what a football player is..ie recruiting service people. They can see little more than how good a kid looks running..that is seriously about the extent of their knowledge on the matter.

We will get a clearer picture in a few weeks. I remember there were a lot of questions about Frank Martin and his ability to recruit and coach too....that looks pretty silly now does it not? I also remember Holbrook recruiting up a storm and everyone counting up the CWS we were in store for....that also seems to have been naïve considering how that turned out.

IMO everyone should hold their buckshot until they can see what they are shooting at.
 
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I read a lot of fair intent and many of the questions you have are questions that everyone should have. I will point out that while you say he has not recruited well.....he has recruited players that have taken over many of the positions on the team. That means they beat out players with more experience and recruited under another staff that had a lot more wind at their back than Muschamp has enjoyed thus far here. That is no small feat considering that he has only had one season of play and poised for the second one now. I do not think it is a fair statement to say he can not recruit when the qb, rb, lb,saftey and cb are all positions that have completely changed over with the player he recruited and in that one and only season. That thumbprint will take a big leap in this his second year. This year will answer most reasonable questions about his ability when we see what many more of Muschamp recruits can do.

What does bother me is that people do not seem to want to wait and see what he is doing. They quickly assume he is not living up to expectations because his results have not been highly rated by people that honestly know little about what a football player is..ie recruiting service people. They can see little more than how good a kid looks running..that is seriously about the extent of their knowledge on the matter.

We will get a clearer picture in a few weeks. I remember there were a lot of questions about Frank Martin and his ability to recruit and coach too....that looks pretty silly now does it not? I also remember Holbrook recruiting up a storm and everyone counting up the CWS we were in store for....that also seems to have been naïve considering how that turned out.

IMO everyone should hold their buckshot until they can see what they are shooting at.

You are absolutely correct . What he accomplished in his first two class were a minor miracle considering the situation he was in . Also having a pretty good situation at QB for the next 4-5 year with Jake and Joyner is a luxury he never had at UF .
 
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Doesn't hurt to get a back like Gallman and a receiver like Renfrow. Talk about playing above your ranking.

That was / is some good fortune that, alongside some good talent, made that team better
 
You are absolutely correct . What he accomplished in his first two class were a minor miracle considering the situation he was in . Also having a pretty good situation at QB for the next 4-5 year with Jake and Joyner is a luxury he never had at UF .

Jake yes. Joyner... let's hope so.
 
You are absolutely correct . What he accomplished in his first two class were a minor miracle considering the situation he was in . Also having a pretty good situation at QB for the next 4-5 year with Jake and Joyner is a luxury he never had at UF .

Is Joyner rated higher than the QBs he had at UF? Sure hope his actual results are better.
 
Is Joyner rated higher than the QBs he had at UF? Sure hope his actual results are better.

Driskel was one of the top 3 qb's coming out of high school and a 5 star if I am not mistaken. My memory may be blurry. The frustration for me is losing the in state kids that we had to have. If you can't get the top players in state as the flagship school then out of state will be near impossible. Klempsun is still picking and choosing for the most part in state. Not good.
 
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Driskel was one of the top 3 qb's coming out of high school and a 5 star if I am not mistaken. My memory may be blurry. The frustration for me is losing the in state kids that we had to have. If you can't get the top players in state as the flagship school then out of state will be near impossible. Klempsun is still picking and choosing for the most part in state. Not good.


I agree but would you not agree that losing those players is more to do with the mess that the previous staff created. No school gets 5 star kids coming off 6, 3 and 6 win seasons. Then you add in players like Mike Williams that was all but ours but Jr....well you know. Hard to turn all that mess around overnight man.
 
I agree but would you not agree that losing those players is more to do with the mess that the previous staff created. No school gets 5 star kids coming off 6, 3 and 6 win seasons. Then you add in players like Mike Williams that was all but ours but Jr....well you know. Hard to turn all that mess around overnight man.

I guess it is an "all of the above". I live in the upstate and Klempsun sh;)$ is everywhere. It is awful. We aren't gaining ground and they are glad to let you know it. I would think immediate playing time would be a huge draw. I read all of the time that kids actually research the roster to see what their chances of playing early are. We have that opportunity in spades. I also would have thought that real in roads would have been made by now. Klempsun actually has a new d line coach that is somewhat of an unknown quantity but that didn't seem to matter. Sorry, frustrated, sigh.
 
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I guess it is an "all of the above". I live in the upstate and Klempsun sh;)$ is everywhere. It is awful. We aren't gaining ground and they are glad to let you know it. I would think immediate playing time would be a huge draw. I read all of the time that kids actually research the roster to see what their chances of playing early are. We have that opportunity in spades. I also would have thought that real in roads would have been made by now. Klempsun actually has a new d line coach that is somewhat of an unknown quantity but that didn't seem to matter. Sorry, frustrated, sigh.


Dude I can only imagine the hell that living up there has brought you over the past few seasons. Dabo should have a bust of Spurrier's ass in his office and kiss it every morning...cause the "evil genius" basically handed over the state to him.
 
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I agree but would you not agree that losing those players is more to do with the mess that the previous staff created. No school gets 5 star kids coming off 6, 3 and 6 win seasons. Then you add in players like Mike Williams that was all but ours but Jr....well you know. Hard to turn all that mess around overnight man.
I tend to agree with you however the only reason Muschamp has this job is he sold tanner that he could get blue chip guys regardless . I love the energy and the drive he has, but no one on this board truly believes Champ was the 1st, 2nd or maybe even third choice for this job . If Tanner was really that sold on him he would have outbid Auburn and brought him on as D Coordinator and "coach in waiting " instead of letting SOS bring in Jon Joke ( sorry I mean Hoke). Not to say he still will not do a good job . I have tons of Clemson friends that were PISSED when Dabo got the job because they felt like the AD settled . Worked out pretty well for them I'd say . However , Muschamp didn't get this job for his brillant game day coaching or his track record of success ... he got the job because he sold tanner on his ability to bring in top 10 classes . This class was very important because it was the best crop of instate talent to come along in years and to this point Dabo is still getting the cream of the crop . In Muschamps defense it's hard to recruit head to head against an instate rival that absolutely demolished you on national Tv . By the first quarter I knew any chance we had with XT was gone . This team overachieved last year , if we get off to a great start who knows what could happen . However, If we get our butts handed to us at NC State opening night things could go down hill pretty quickly .
 
We have the #21st ranked class for 2018 coming off a 6 win season.

People forget that we are in the midst of a total rebuild, not a reload. Our prestige in the eyes of recruits fell to pre-Spurrier levels when he left. We will be back.
 
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