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SCHSL playoff observation

Judson1

Judson1

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Jul 31, 2008
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I was just checking playoff brackets. Several non traditional schools are poised to run deep into the playoffs.
Philip Simmons, Oceanside, Gray Collegiate. There may be more I’m not sure.
Do you think they will ever create a separate division for these schools? I’m not sure but I believe I heard they must play in a division above their attendance??? If true it doesn’t look like it’s making a difference. As a player of a traditional school it would suck to get beaten by a school that didn’t field a team the same way your school did.
 
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I agree. Tough to beat the recruiters - even some of the public schools do it, but the league doesn’t police it (at least it should police the obvious). Is Phillip Simmons not a public school?
 
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It’s a big issue in SCISA too. There are several schools that should really be competing against public schools. My sons team played a school from Hilton Head that only had an average of 17 boys per grade and yet the football team had at least 6 boys over six feet tall. It’s statistically impossible for that to occur without recruiting.
 
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Neanderthal said:
I agree. Tough to beat the recruiters - even some of the public schools do it, but the league doesn’t police it (at least it should police the obvious). Is Phillip Simmons not a public school?
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Phillips Simmons is public. They are over between Daniel Island and Mount Pleasant, southern Berkeley county. They have only been around since 2018. The area is really growing. I suspect they will get moved up next year.
 
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Neanderthal said:
I agree. Tough to beat the recruiters - even some of the public schools do it, but the league doesn’t police it (at least it should police the obvious). Is Phillip Simmons not a public school?
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I may be mistaken about Phillip Simmons. I read the history behind the name of the school but I don’t know if they are like Gray and Oceanside or not. Sorry if I was wrong.
 
Judson1 said:
I was just checking playoff brackets. Several non traditional schools are poised to run deep into the playoffs.
Philip Simmons, Oceanside, Gray Collegiate. There may be more I’m not sure.
Do you think they will ever create a separate division for these schools? I’m not sure but I believe I heard they must play in a division above their attendance??? If true it doesn’t look like it’s making a difference. As a player of a traditional school it would suck to get beaten by a school that didn’t field a team the same way your school did.
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I could be wrong, but I think this would require state legislation. I believe state law guarantees charter schools a place in the SCHSL as well as certain protections.
 
Judson1 said:
Do you think they will ever create a separate division for these schools?
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Probably so... eventually, once enough schools are affected. Slow process. I dont think it's so much about losing to those guys as it is losing the players themselves. For instance, Hanahan had to compete with BE (their rival) for decades claiming an unfair advantage. All their complaints fell on deaf ears at the SCHSL. Truth is, no one cared. No one. Sour grapes they called it. Then over the last decade, the issue became more widespread but still not enough to make significant changes. Just enough changes to shut people up for a while imo... like having these schools play up a division. Those changes were made in part because schools like Wando were all of a sudden siding with Hanahan, but not before Oceanside started poaching Wando players. So it only became a problem that needed to be addressed when it happened to them. Funny how that works. I have no doubt change will come when the number of schools getting poached increases or given more time, schools that recruit start to dominate consistantly. I dont know if we're there quite yet. I think what slows these kind of decisions down is that schools love to see other schools miserable and will kick them while they are down if they could. Nature I guess. If you dont have allies, good luck with that.
 
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While we're talking playoffs, I'm considering a trip from Lancaster to Sumter on Friday night to see the Gamecocks play Dutch Fork. I've never seen Dutch Fork play. Besides the hassle of buying tickets online - presumably - is anyone knowledgeable about the size of the crowd the place can accommodate. I don't want to ride down there and not be able to get a seat. I could probably get to the stadium an hour early at least.
 
Philip Simmons is public...Daniel Island and Cainhoy. The AD and HC seem to understand program building...they're already fielding youth teams down to 6 years of age, with kids that will be coached annually with offense and defense philosophies that will carry into high school. Constant evaluation of the kids in the program also pays obvious dividends as they work their way from elementary to middle to high school.

I don't think anyone expected to see the success that the HS team had this year, and they were kinda fortunate to beat Wade Hampton last Friday - scored on 4th and goal from the five yard line with less than a minute to play, and won the game by a point. But that's a school worth keeping an eye on going forward. The area is growing like wildfire, and as noted, the folks in charge are implementing what seems to be a pretty good plan.
 
king ward said:
While we're talking playoffs, I'm considering a trip from Lancaster to Sumter on Friday night to see the Gamecocks play Dutch Fork. I've never seen Dutch Fork play. Besides the hassle of buying tickets online - presumably - is anyone knowledgeable about the size of the crowd the place can accommodate. I don't want to ride down there and not be able to get a seat. I could probably get to the stadium an hour early at least.
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Decent sized stadium so doubt you would have any real issues. Won't be much of a game as the final score will be dependent upon just how benevolent Knotts is feeling that evening. But it is a treat to watch DF play football. They are a machine. A lot of folks don't like Knotts, but he is the best HS coach I have ever seen.

As far as the openly recruiting schools. The SCHSL does need to put them in their own special classification. A few years back they tried to put Bishop England and Christ Church in a box by bumping them up in classification. But Christ has sort of backed off from their glory days a bit. Now that has been replaced by Southside Christian in the upstate who suddenly decided to take football seriously a few years ago. A joke that they are playing 1A. And all the Legion affiliates are nothing more than baby IMG's. I really like the way the schools around Rock Hill treated them. Once created, they hired a few of the more prominent coaches in the area and the schools in that area basically refuse to acknowledge their presence, or play them. They know that their sole purpose is to recruit the players from the talent rich schools around Rock Hill. But the SCHSL is a joke. The thing they do best is nothing, so I don't see them getting things in line anytime soon.
 
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“The best thing the SCHSL does is nothing”.” You are on it, midline. About as accurate as you can put it. The danger for Sumter is DF recruiting anybody that plays good against them. Knotts can coach, no doubt, but breaks the rules with no regard in making sure he wins. Should have went into NASCAR, though they have policed themselves a little better this century. I don’t think it’ll be long until the SCHSL moves to allow any and all transfers - it’d cut their workload in half. The league members must hold the lie. The cheaters get richer and the portions get poorer - dangerous way to go anywhere.
 
midline said:
Decent sized stadium so doubt you would have any real issues. Won't be much of a game as the final score will be dependent upon just how benevolent Knotts is feeling that evening. But it is a treat to watch DF play football. They are a machine. A lot of folks don't like Knotts, but he is the best HS coach I have ever seen.

As far as the openly recruiting schools. The SCHSL does need to put them in their own special classification. A few years back they tried to put Bishop England and Christ Church in a box by bumping them up in classification. But Christ has sort of backed off from their glory days a bit. Now that has been replaced by Southside Christian in the upstate who suddenly decided to take football seriously a few years ago. A joke that they are playing 1A. And all the Legion affiliates are nothing more than baby IMG's. I really like the way the schools around Rock Hill treated them. Once created, they hired a few of the more prominent coaches in the area and the schools in that area basically refuse to acknowledge their presence, or play them. They know that their sole purpose is to recruit the players from the talent rich schools around Rock Hill. But the SCHSL is a joke. The thing they do best is nothing, so I don't see them getting things in line anytime soon.
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I know that, in N.C., Charlotte Catholic has played in the regular division for years and they have often been a force. Jim Otto (I believe) was the guy that built them into a power. I also know that Legion in Rock Hill has aligned with the N.C. high school league, whatever it's called.
 
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So back to playoffs. Can someone update me on who is remaining. I haven't paid any attention to it.
Thanks
 
I can't add much to this but I teach at a school who got blown out by Oceanside and one of my students who's a player said they're the biggest bunch they've seen by far. Like we didn't have any business being on the same field as them.
 
It's a shame that it has went on as long as it has. There needs to be change, separate classifications for those type schools. If not, make them play in the highest classification. Alot of these schools like cheap titles. Southside Christian in the same region with Dixie, Calhoun Falls, McCormick, Whitmire, Ware Shoals is a joke. Those schools play with who they have, they don't have the luxury of recruiting.

My HS team has had to deal with the charters/privates too, although they do hold their own. But it doesn't change the fact that we're pulling from our attendance zone and not recruiting like the privates/charters.
 
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midline said:
Decent sized stadium so doubt you would have any real issues. Won't be much of a game as the final score will be dependent upon just how benevolent Knotts is feeling that evening. But it is a treat to watch DF play football. They are a machine. A lot of folks don't like Knotts, but he is the best HS coach I have ever seen.

As far as the openly recruiting schools. The SCHSL does need to put them in their own special classification. A few years back they tried to put Bishop England and Christ Church in a box by bumping them up in classification. But Christ has sort of backed off from their glory days a bit. Now that has been replaced by Southside Christian in the upstate who suddenly decided to take football seriously a few years ago. A joke that they are playing 1A. And all the Legion affiliates are nothing more than baby IMG's. I really like the way the schools around Rock Hill treated them. Once created, they hired a few of the more prominent coaches in the area and the schools in that area basically refuse to acknowledge their presence, or play them. They know that their sole purpose is to recruit the players from the talent rich schools around Rock Hill. But the SCHSL is a joke. The thing they do best is nothing, so I don't see them getting things in line anytime soon.
Click to expand...
The SCHSL recently tried to create a rule that would’ve limited the ability of schools to recruit players. However I believe some schools got together and sued and subsequently won.
 
ClemDent said:
It’s a big issue in SCISA too. There are several schools that should really be competing against public schools. My sons team played a school from Hilton Head that only had an average of 17 boys per grade and yet the football team had at least 6 boys over six feet tall. It’s statistically impossible for that to occur without recruiting.
Click to expand...
If they are a private school, why shouldn't they be allowed to recruit?
 
DarkCock said:
If they are a private school, why shouldn't they be allowed to recruit?
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That's not really the issue. The issue is, if they are allowed to recruit, why are they playing with schools that aren't can't? IMO, recruit all you want, just don't expect to play with schools that can't. Create your own league where there are no rules, and just play each other.
 
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chief2791 said:
That's not really the issue. The issue is, if they are allowed to recruit, why are they playing with schools that aren't can't? IMO, recruit all you want, just don't expect to play with schools that can't. Create your own league where there are no rules, and just play each other.
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I was responding to a post about SCISA, where all the schools are private. I assume you're talking about another scenario that involves both public and private schools.
 
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DarkCock said:
If they are a private school, why shouldn't they be allowed to recruit?
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I have no issues with them recruiting. My point is that schools are classified by the number of boys they have (at least for SCISA) That classification assumes a natural distribution. By giving numerous athletic scholarships the school creates an artificial situation, natural distribution of size, talent etc no longer applies. If schools want to do scholarships then that should somehow factor in to the classification math.
 
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ClemDent said:
I have no issues with them recruiting. My point is that schools are classified by the number of boys they have (at least for SCISA) That classification assumes a natural distribution. By giving numerous athletic scholarships the school creates an artificial situation, natural distribution of size, talent etc no longer applies. If schools want to do scholarships then that should somehow factor in to the classification math.
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I'd be surprised if the majority of SCISA school were down for such a thing. They are guarded about their freedom.

Probably the best response for your son's school is to choose a smaller sport besides football and concentrate on recruiting in that sport. That is what private schools in Columbia have turned to since it's obvious that Hammond is going to dominate in football.

I know that's not ideal if your son plays football. I'm just being realistic.
 
I have not seen the other schools in action that have been mention from the " Charter School" list except for Gray Collegiate... Abbeville Will play them this coming Friday night @ Fairfield Central since GC does not have their own "home" field. I have watched Abbeville play them the last few years and they are a well coached and very talented group. Abbeville has had their hands full every time they have played them & I anticipate more of the same this week. I know they have been able to take players from the surrounding area as they were able to bring in the Batesburg-Leesville QB last year. The problem is that the SCHSL has allowed this to go on for so long how do they now stop it ? My Senior year of HS we played Christ Church in Basketball and their front line , for a 1-A school mind you, was 6-8, 6-7 & 6-9. The guy playing center for us was 6-4. We got hammered as you can expect. This stuff is not new but it is become more pronounced as more of the Charter schools open. The High School League is , as a rule , about as useless as a Ice Machine in the artic.
 
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Judson1 said:
I was just checking playoff brackets. Several non traditional schools are poised to run deep into the playoffs.
Philip Simmons, Oceanside, Gray Collegiate. There may be more I’m not sure.
Do you think they will ever create a separate division for these schools? I’m not sure but I believe I heard they must play in a division above their attendance??? If true it doesn’t look like it’s making a difference. As a player of a traditional school it would suck to get beaten by a school that didn’t field a team the same way your school did.
Click to expand...
Cry me a freaking river. Gray recruits itself because of the dual enrollment opportunities. If you apply yourself, you can graduate from Gray and enter college as almost a Jr. What parent wouldn't want those savings.....

Gray v Abbeville this weekend for the upper-state championship. Nobody's complaining about Abbeville's run of state championships....Do you not think Dutch Fork recruits itself because of Knotts' track record?
 
moose# said:
Cry me a freaking river. Gray recruits itself because of the dual enrollment opportunities. If you apply yourself, you can graduate from Gray and enter college as almost a Jr. What parent wouldn't want those savings.....

Gray v Abbeville this weekend for the upper-state championship. Nobody's complaining about Abbeville's run of state championships....Do you not think Dutch Fork recruits itself because of Knotts' track record?
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Why would anyone complain about Abbeville's state championships? They play with what they have, which is homegrown talent, not recruited talent.
 
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chief2791 said:
Why would anyone complain about Abbeville's state championships? They play with what they have, which is homegrown talent, not recruited talent.
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So you really think all of Abbeville's players were born and raised in their town....? They never get a kid that moves in from Dixie or BHP or maybe even Greenwood?

Gray is three miles from River Bluff and ten miles from Lexington. Who's coming to Gray from those two schools?

Again, cry me a river. Man up or get out the way.
 
moose# said:
So you really think all of Abbeville's players were born and raised in their town....? They never get a kid that moves in from Dixie or BHP or maybe even Greenwood?

Gray is three miles from River Bluff and ten miles from Lexington. Who's coming to Gray from those two schools?

Again, cry me a river. Man up or get out the way.
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I'll bet every dollar I have in my pocket that I know more about Abbeville football than you do. Man up or get out of the way? I mean, that's what Abbeville does, man up, we win state championships. It's still not remotely the same circumstances as say Christ Church, Gray, or Oceanside. It's just not. But you play the cards you're dealt, win anyway.

A player or two moves in here and there, of course, but I can't think of one significant member of the football team now or in the past that has moved in. Abbeville doesn't win because of recruiting, Abbeville wins because of it's system and the importance of football in the community.
 
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moose# said:
Cry me a freaking river. Gray recruits itself because of the dual enrollment opportunities. If you apply yourself, you can graduate from Gray and enter college as almost a Jr. What parent wouldn't want those savings.....

Gray v Abbeville this weekend for the upper-state championship. Nobody's complaining about Abbeville's run of state championships....Do you not think Dutch Fork recruits itself because of Knotts' track record?
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Gray cab recruit itself all it wants. That's fine. But still doesn't change the fact that it gives them a huge advantage over the traditional public school. Let them play. But put them into their own classification that is separate than your normal school.
 
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midline said:
Gray cab recruit itself all it wants. That's fine. But still doesn't change the fact that it gives them a huge advantage over the traditional public school. Let them play. But put them into their own classification that is separate than your normal school.
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Exactly what I'm trying to say. I just don't know why it's so hard to understand for some.

I'm not crying a river, Abbeville can go toe to toe with almost anyone (hell there's alot of bigger schools that won't schedule us, I won't name names, but they want no part of us). It's the Dixie's, McCormick's, etc. that have to play a Southside Christian etc., that's not in any way fair and equitable. No reasonable person can make an argument for that with a straight face.
 
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Q: Why does the SCHSL continue to extend memberships to these private schools? They don’t have to - I fear involvement with some member of the legislature. Politicians always sticking their noses in stuff that know nothing about. The member schools should speak out more.
 
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king ward said:
I know that, in N.C., Charlotte Catholic has played in the regular division for years and they have often been a force. Jim Otto (I believe) was the guy that built them into a power. I also know that Legion in Rock Hill has aligned with the N.C. high school league, whatever it's called.
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I looked it up. Legion Collegiate has affiliated with the North Carolina Independent Schools Athletic Association (NC equivalent of SCISA).
 
king ward said:
Gotcha. I think they have some sizable private schools in the Charlotte area. At least they are willing to face off with Legion.
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Per the North Carolina Independent Schools Athletic Association (NCISAA) web page, schools from both SC & VA first joined in 1991. In addition to Legion Collegiate, the other two current out of state members are Westminster Catawba Christian School in Rock Hill, and Rabun Gap Nacoochee School of Rabun Gap, GA.

NCISAA bylaws require a member to join a conference, and thus, at least a few NCISAA members will have to compete against Legion on the playing field, court, etc.

Augusta Christian is a SCISA member, even though Georgia has a similar organization.

I think the public school leagues, e.g., SCHSL, NCHSAA (North Carolina High School Athletic Association) do not admit out-of state schools. That might be a general policy of the National Federation of State High School Associations for all I know.
 
midline said:
Decent sized stadium so doubt you would have any real issues. Won't be much of a game as the final score will be dependent upon just how benevolent Knotts is feeling that evening. But it is a treat to watch DF play football. They are a machine. A lot of folks don't like Knotts, but he is the best HS coach I have ever seen...
Click to expand...
For people's information, Dutch Fork/Sumter tickets are not on GoFan. They are being sold at www.sumtergamecocks.com .
 
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