Are we as fans allowed to ever expect winning in conf. play? Extremely frustrated with the product we're being given. Staley took over a mess too, but by year 3 she had us at .500 in SEC play (8-8). By admission, I was fairly impatient early in her tenure, but concrete progress was evident in that 3rd season. Just not seeing anything similar on the men's side right now. Very unfortunate situation. As always, Go Cocks.
So how many years do we give?
- Thread starter carolina81
- Start date
Comparing Dawn in WBB to Frank in MBB is apples to oranges. Dawn was basically an elite hire, and her recruiting abilities are rare.
Frank is a builder, but this program had to be torn down first. Our basketball team after Horn was the boarded up crack houses that had to be torn down to start building the nice upscale condos.
Valid points Beckham, but we aren't exactly losing to world-beaters right now (i.e. Auburn and UT). Of course, the ultimate world-beater comes to town this weekend in UK. Just a very frustrating situation.
This post was edited on 1/20 11:33 PM by carolina81
This post was edited on 1/20 11:33 PM by carolina81
pepsicock
Well-Known Member
I'd say 6. Next year will be more of the same. Year 5 if not better will have the yell for a new coach pretty loud.
Did you see all the empty seats? If we get blown out against Kentucky they will be giving tickets away, and if the seats are empty Martains is getting hot!
Did you see all the empty seats? If we get blown out against Kentucky they will be giving tickets away, and if the seats are empty Martains is getting hot!
I say we give him 40 years. That's about the last time we were credible anyway. If you're a #2 seed and lose to a 16 seed in the first round of the NCAA, why even bother until you know you're not a pretender.
The 9:00 starts have a lot to do with that. We're missing probably 2,000 people at the last 2 home games because of it.
An elite coach does not need 5 or 6 years to build a basketball program. One or two players can make all the difference. Frank can't get those players.
The best remnants of Horn's team also transferred. He basically started with nothing. We're losing some close games, but we've won some too, which is better than getting blown out game after game. I see some progress, but I expect those close loses to turn into close wins by next year. By the end of this season, I would hope that we would challenge the best teams in the SEC, and not be any team's pushover.
This post was edited on 1/21 9:26 AM by wallycock
You have to give it several more years in my opinion. Constantly shuttling coaches in and out won't build a program. The men's basketball program is not a quick fix. You won't get a ton of big recruits to come in until you show signs of promise because why would a kid who had options select a program that hasn't won in his lifetime over a perennial NCAA Tournament team?The fact that he signed the Dozier kid for next year is a huge step....
You also have to keep in mind that Martin signed 4 kids in last year's recruiting class. 1 kid didn't make it to campus due to legal problems. Not Martin's fault. 2 kids got hurt before season started (one just came back earlier than expected) ... Not Martin's fault. That basically left you with 1 new person (Stroman, who is good) to build on last year's team.
Should we be happy with losing a lot of close games, of course not. BUT, this team is competitive - they have a chance to win (unlike year's past when there was no chance of winning in many games). To me that's a good sign. Last night, they didn't play well but battled back instead of quitting. Don't like moral victories, but that's a good sign to me too. The kids seem to like Martin based on every interview I've seen/read. Another good sign.
Last thing - Martin is great with community and talking to the public and is quite visible on campus with the students. He wants what we all want. Staley did a great job building the women's program, and I believe Martin can do it here. As long as those guys keep playing hard, I feel like my money spent on tickets IS well spent. I want wins, but I have been entertained this year. Hopefully they can find a way to win some of these close ones and get on a little run.
Go Gamecocks!
You also have to keep in mind that Martin signed 4 kids in last year's recruiting class. 1 kid didn't make it to campus due to legal problems. Not Martin's fault. 2 kids got hurt before season started (one just came back earlier than expected) ... Not Martin's fault. That basically left you with 1 new person (Stroman, who is good) to build on last year's team.
Should we be happy with losing a lot of close games, of course not. BUT, this team is competitive - they have a chance to win (unlike year's past when there was no chance of winning in many games). To me that's a good sign. Last night, they didn't play well but battled back instead of quitting. Don't like moral victories, but that's a good sign to me too. The kids seem to like Martin based on every interview I've seen/read. Another good sign.
Last thing - Martin is great with community and talking to the public and is quite visible on campus with the students. He wants what we all want. Staley did a great job building the women's program, and I believe Martin can do it here. As long as those guys keep playing hard, I feel like my money spent on tickets IS well spent. I want wins, but I have been entertained this year. Hopefully they can find a way to win some of these close ones and get on a little run.
Go Gamecocks!
If you truly want to see a coach who started with nothing, check out Donnie Tyndall at Tennessee this year. He only has 3 scholarship players left from last year's team.
Despite that, he's got Tennessee 4-1 in the SEC, and he just beat Martin, who's in his 3rd year at Carolina.
I feel your frustration and was skeptical of Frank Martin after the last few seasons.
But watching the team play the out of conference teams (not just the cupcakes) showed improvement. He is getting a lot out of his players. Getting PJ Dozier helps as well. I personally think he needs 2-3 more years to show what he can do. That seems like a lot but our men's basketball program needs time.
A
anon_n4c0cp5zhdxn7
Guest
IMO, it depends on the analysis of the team. Are they improving or not? If they are, give him some time, as he's headed in the right direction. If they are not improving, give someone else a chance.
I heard a lot of people say, last year, Martin was a bad coach and couldn't improve the players. I think the Lithuanians, Notice and McKie prove them wrong.
Personally, I think we are playing much improved defense. We also seem to do a much better job of passing the ball around (sometimes last year it looked like the players had vasoline on their hands) and do a better job of getting the ball inside. They just need to start taking advantage of their opportunities and gain some confidence. Odd, considering I thought we had done that after the Iowa State game. Guess not.
I heard a lot of people say, last year, Martin was a bad coach and couldn't improve the players. I think the Lithuanians, Notice and McKie prove them wrong.
Personally, I think we are playing much improved defense. We also seem to do a much better job of passing the ball around (sometimes last year it looked like the players had vasoline on their hands) and do a better job of getting the ball inside. They just need to start taking advantage of their opportunities and gain some confidence. Odd, considering I thought we had done that after the Iowa State game. Guess not.
I think they have improved from last year to this year, we just are not seeing the wins. Maybe it is just me. I think there is still hope that we can finish 9--9 in the SEC this year. You must give Frank 6 to 7 years as long as we do not see a drop in play.
We're inconsistent and need some shooters. At least we beat ISU so we know what we're capable of. Last year, we easily lose to them. Hate losing games we should win though. Have to get that out of our system.
So we beat UK last year and Iowa State this year. Does 1 annual big upset win signify progress? In the past 10 years USC has upset 11 ranked opponents. We didn't make the dance in any of those years, only sniffed it once, and showed little to no progress over that entire decade-long span but we still had some great games here or there and upset some ranked teams. But in retrospect, none of those upset wins were truly signs of progress.
I will say that the OK St, Clemson, and Iowa St games were some of the best games I've seen a Gamecock team play in Martin's tenure. But those games are just 3 games out of 30 this year. Are we just supposed to hold our nose and ignore the other 27 games so we can shout "Progress!"???
I had forgotten we beat UK last year. I'll admit I don't follow basketball very closely like I did in the 80's and 90's. Think we're bringing in a pretty good recruiting class though. So if we can Frank, who do we get?
This post was edited on 1/21 9:48 AM by sclawman77
So we fire Horn after 4 years and then Martin after 3. What coach in his right mind is going to come here knowing they won't be given a good shot to get the program turned around?
I'm not suggesting we fire Martin right now. My position is that I'm very disappointed with his progress so far, but I'm skeptically willing to give him at least 2 more years. However, I constantly hear folks suggest that "we've improved so much" or "Martin is ahead of schedule" and I strongly disagree with both of those statements. I think this program needs an honest look. I don't think anyone could say with a straight face that when we hired Martin they'd be happy with the results we've seen so far.
^
What were your expectations for this season? A .500 or above record still looks feasible.
This post was edited on 1/21 11:51 AM by sclawman77
What were your expectations for this season? A .500 or above record still looks feasible.
This post was edited on 1/21 11:51 AM by sclawman77
My expectations for the season? Around .500 overall, and I think we'll likely finish about 14-16. That would put us at 5-13 in the SEC for the second year in a row. Even though these were my expectations, I was not happy with these expectations. I did not expect to see progress this season. I was blasted by many for posting these expectations and called "negative."
Yet, we have folks now suggesting that achieving my measly expectations would be a big sign of progress.
I didn't expect to see much progress... and I haven't.
Last year at this time, we already had 7 or 8 bad losses, for crying out loud we lost to Upstate. So for this year we have 2 bad losses, to Ole Miss and Kent St. I am seeing progress on the floor. And I do see us finishing the year with a .500 SEC record. Do you not think that recruiting has been better under Martin than Horn.
We are 1-4 in the SEC. 13 games left. 6 at home and 7 on the road. We need to go 8-5 over that stretch to finish the regular season at .500 in SEC play. We are currently 1-18 in SEC road games under Martin. In our 6 home games, we still have UK and UGA (who is playing really well) to play. Unless we pull a massive upset (UK) and a decent upset (UGA) in those games, at best we go 4-2 in our final 6 homes games (that would be wins on our court over Mizz, A&M, Miss St and Ark). That means we have to go 4-3 in the 7 road games. Our 7 road games are @ LSU, @ Ark, @ Vandy, @ UK, @ UGA, @ Alabama, and @ Tenn. Let me remind you that we're 1-18 under Martin in SEC road games. So tell me where the four wins come from. I'm not going to say it is impossible to reach .500 in SEC play, but if I were a betting man (which I'm not), I know which way the smart play would be and that would be that we finish below .500.
At least 5 years. Horn got four and his teams literally got worse every year he was the head coach. This year's team is decidedly better than the first two years, so we'll see if the upward trend keeps going next season. If it doesn't, then he'll have year 5 to save his job.
7 or 8 bad losses at this time last year? That's patently false. We had one bad loss at this time last year: USC Upstate. Our other worst loss was to a decent Boise State team. We also lost to eventual NIT Final 4 team Clemson, which was certainly not a bad loss. Another loss was to an NCAA Tourney team in Manhattan (which nearly knocked off Louisville). Your 7 or 8 bad losses statement couldn't be further from the truth. USC Upstate was the only "bad" loss.
In our first 5 conference games last year we lost to eventual #1 overall seed Florida, NIT team LSU, NIT team UGA, CBI team Texas A&M, and an average Ole Miss team. Those 5 games are much tougher than the 5 game stretch we've started this conference season on.
This year, our worst losses are: an atrocious loss to a terrible Charlotte team, a loss to a below average Akron team, and losses to mediocre Auburn and Ole Miss teams. Charlotte is certainly a "bad loss." I'd say we have the same number of "bad" losses this year as we did last year.
So no, I don't see any improvement in the losses, as you evidently do.
As for your statement that you see us finishing with a .500 SEC record. We're currently 1-4 and dead last in the SEC. Frank Martin has lost 95% of his road games at South Carolina, and 7 of our remaining games are on the road (@LSU, @Arkansas, @Vanderbilt, @Kentucky, @Georgia, @Alabama, @Tennessee). I'd wager that anyone without a rooting interest would consider every one of those teams (with Vandy as the possible exception) currently better than South Carolina, and I'm confident we'll be underdogs in every one of those road games.
As for the home games, we have Kentucky, Georgia, Missouri, Texas A&M, Mississippi State, and Arkansas. We'll likely be favored vs. Mizzou, Texas A&M, and Miss State. Georgia game is a potential pick em or USC slight underdog. Arkansas and Kentucky we will certainly be underdogs.
That means in our remaining SEC games, we'll likely be favored to win 3 (Mizzou, Texas A&M, and Miss State), possible pick ems in 2 others (UGA and @Vandy), and underdogs in all the others. While your optimism that we'll improve from 1-4 to 9-9 in the SEC is admirable, it is not realistic.
Clemson - 71-57
OSU - 79-52
Manhattan - 86-68
USC-State - 74-68
Boise St - 80-54
Florida - 74-58
UGA - 97-76
In my book these are all bad losses, would this year's team lose to those teams as bad? I do not think so.
Maybe they are not 9-9, but they will be closer to that than the 5-13 you are predicting.
So you're bitching about him in every thread on the board that has to do with basketball but you DON'T want him fired? Just seems like a waste of time. I'm sure nobody is happy with our record right now, Martin included.
I don't view it as a waste of time, I'm just trying to counter the "we've improved so much" and "we're ahead of schedule" garbage that I keep hearing on 107.5, reading in the news, hearing in conversations with fellow Gamecocks, and seeing on this website and others. And I believe the time is more than ripe for folks to look at Frank Martin with a critical eye, rather than making excuses for him. I'm not advocating his firing but I would love for folks to say "what we've seen so far is not even near good enough." I'd prefer an honest look at his coaching tenure here rather than the excuses most keep making for him.
I say give him 2/3 more unless we really get worse. I am sick of the merry go round with coaches. He has had some bad luck recruiting big men.
Frank Martin, Frank was given a teriible program, fan base players etc, you guys expect a new coach to come in
and win today, This is not going to happen all the better coaches will not come to SC because the fans want to
put high expections on something.
Frank is building a program give hime 7 or 8 eight years , and let's then take a look.
Bobby would not come because of the way the fans attend games, you guys just keep looking in the mirror .
Frank has been a winner everhwere he has been, he will win at USC but you have to get some more asses in the seats
so he can tell plyaers look we're full even when we loose. The coach will get it right just stay the course. There is
not a better coach anywhere that will come to USC right now. I put this on the board they had a guy just like
they had Bobby before he was famous, now Marshall was ready but USC DIDN'T NEED HIM. So we got Frank .
and win today, This is not going to happen all the better coaches will not come to SC because the fans want to
put high expections on something.
Frank is building a program give hime 7 or 8 eight years , and let's then take a look.
Bobby would not come because of the way the fans attend games, you guys just keep looking in the mirror .
Frank has been a winner everhwere he has been, he will win at USC but you have to get some more asses in the seats
so he can tell plyaers look we're full even when we loose. The coach will get it right just stay the course. There is
not a better coach anywhere that will come to USC right now. I put this on the board they had a guy just like
they had Bobby before he was famous, now Marshall was ready but USC DIDN'T NEED HIM. So we got Frank .
7 or 8 years? If there is no real progress, six should be the absolute max. I do see some progress already in year 3, hopefully he keeps it up. But it shouldn't take any coach worth his salt, 7 or 8 years to bring about a consistent winner with all the resources that USC has.
I think every great program takes time to develop. I agree with beckham's comparison.
This post was edited on 1/22 8:48 AM by cockygirl1801
This post was edited on 1/22 8:48 AM by cockygirl1801
A 4th year would be the last. All this looking ahead to 2017 or 2018 and what we might be by then? LOL! By your 4th year you have your hands all over the program. If it is'nt working, guess what....it's you. No progress, no job.
Horn was a mistake. In 3-4 years a coach has players HE recruited into the program. So if there is'nt obvious progress then your millions are cut off. Face it folks, most of these coaches are just trying to fatten their bank accounts. I'm not saying they dont want to do well at every stop and earn their money, but if you cant turn around a team in 3-4 years you are'nt worth your salt as a coach.
Similar threads
