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Bunting in today's game... no longer relevant.

Lucas_Jackson

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Jul 18, 2007
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According to Dan Levitt of baseballanalysts.com, using a study that gathered information over 15 years of professional baseball, the expected run table for an inning sets at .877 in situations where there is a runner at first with no outs. However, if you decide to bunt the runner over, your expected run table for the inning drops to .693 with a runner on second and one out.

In essence, you are voluntarily killing your own rally.

In addition to the expected run table, basic percentages say that the sac bunt is the wrong play. According to Baseball Prospectus, you have a 24.4 percent better chance of scoring a runner from first with no outs than you have of scoring a runner from second with one out. 24.4 percent! Swing away.
 
This is an interesting topic. Thanks for sharing. I'll have to do some more reading on the study.

I wonder if the fallacy here is thinking pro ball = college ball and that these numbers would hold constant at all levels of competition.
 
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According to Dan Levitt of baseballanalysts.com, using a study that gathered information over 15 years of professional baseball, the expected run table for an inning sets at .877 in situations where there is a runner at first with no outs. However, if you decide to bunt the runner over, your expected run table for the inning drops to .693 with a runner on second and one out.

In essence, you are voluntarily killing your own rally.

In addition to the expected run table, basic percentages say that the sac bunt is the wrong play. According to Baseball Prospectus, you have a 24.4 percent better chance of scoring a runner from first with no outs than you have of scoring a runner from second with one out. 24.4 percent! Swing away.
I think the biggest piece of that study that is understated is that.... it's 'professional baseball'. That's the best pitching in the world and hits come at a premium. Batting averages are typically much more higher than pros.

MLB batting average in 2016 was .255

Couldn't find a robust one for College Baseball (and i don't feel like calculating it right now)
http://www.ncaa.com/stats/baseball/d1/current/team/210
You have to go to team #244 until you hit a team average of .255

With that much discrepancy, the % for college baseball would mean get a batter to a scoring position at any cost... even at the sacrifice of an out.

That doesn't get into a higher fielding error rate for college baseball. Balls come off the metal bats faster which means less reaction time for fielders.

Make sense for MLB but college baseball is a completely different beast.
 
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This is an interesting topic. Thanks for sharing. I'll have to do some more reading on the study.

I wonder if the fallacy here is thinking pro ball = college ball and that these numbers would hold constant at all levels of competition.
I guarantee it wouldn't. Posted a quick summary above.
 
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According to Dan Levitt of baseballanalysts.com, using a study that gathered information over 15 years of professional baseball, the expected run table for an inning sets at .877 in situations where there is a runner at first with no outs. However, if you decide to bunt the runner over, your expected run table for the inning drops to .693 with a runner on second and one out.

In essence, you are voluntarily killing your own rally.

In addition to the expected run table, basic percentages say that the sac bunt is the wrong play. According to Baseball Prospectus, you have a 24.4 percent better chance of scoring a runner from first with no outs than you have of scoring a runner from second with one out. 24.4 percent! Swing away.

"baseball is played all wrong" ~ (no, not yogi.....but), frank deford, 1964



.
 
According to Dan Levitt of baseballanalysts.com, using a study that gathered information over 15 years of professional baseball, the expected run table for an inning sets at .877 in situations where there is a runner at first with no outs. However, if you decide to bunt the runner over, your expected run table for the inning drops to .693 with a runner on second and one out.

In essence, you are voluntarily killing your own rally.

In addition to the expected run table, basic percentages say that the sac bunt is the wrong play. According to Baseball Prospectus, you have a 24.4 percent better chance of scoring a runner from first with no outs than you have of scoring a runner from second with one out. 24.4 percent! Swing away.
Pro baseball yes other levels not so much. I don't care for bunting that much either I like to see those line drives, hard ground ball and HR but hitters at other levels ain't millionaire hitters. Nobody pays a pro baseball player big $$$ because he can bunt. John Jones would be a bunting situation in my eyes. (No offense John Jones).
 
Pro baseball yes other levels not so much. I don't care for bunting that much either I like to see those line drives, hard ground ball and HR but hitters at other levels ain't millionaire hitters. Nobody pays a pro baseball player big $$$ because he can bunt. John Jones would be a bunting situation in my eyes. (No offense John Jones).
I don't like bunting either.... but if it brings a win...
 
I'm not the baseball expert some of y'all are, but depending on game situations, before the DH came to baseball - a development I mourned as a traditionalist - managers were a whole lot more likely to use the bunt with a pitcher at the plate and a runner on first with less than two outs than they were to have the pitcher hit away.

If they had an infielder hitting .175 up there, the same reasoning might apply.

There were a few pitchers who could handle the bat well enough to hit behind a runner. Don Drysdale comes to mind. But there weren't many like him. Baseball was a far more strategic game before the advent of the DH.
 
I'm not the baseball expert some of y'all are, but depending on game situations, before the DH came to baseball - a development I mourned as a traditionalist - managers were a whole lot more likely to use the bunt with a pitcher at the plate and a runner on first with less than two outs than they were to have the pitcher hit away.

If they had an infielder hitting .175 up there, the same reasoning might apply.

There were a few pitchers who could handle the bat well enough to hit behind a runner. Don Drysdale comes to mind. But there weren't many like him. Baseball was a far more strategic game before the advent of the DH.

"were a few pitchers who could handle the bat well enough to hit behind a runner".....that's why the old professor would often bat whitey eight ahead of the "second socker from sumter":)

btw, believe the dh has added a little more strategy 2 game....although I inhertenetly dislike the
 
"were a few pitchers who could handle the bat well enough to hit behind a runner".....that's why the old professor would often bat whitey eight ahead of the "second socker from sumter":)

btw, believe the dh has added a little more strategy 2 game....although I inhertenetly dislike the

"...second sacker from Sumter..". Only World Series MVP from the losing team
 
I'm not the baseball expert some of y'all are, but depending on game situations, before the DH came to baseball - a development I mourned as a traditionalist - managers were a whole lot more likely to use the bunt with a pitcher at the plate and a runner on first with less than two outs than they were to have the pitcher hit away.

If they had an infielder hitting .175 up there, the same reasoning might apply.

There were a few pitchers who could handle the bat well enough to hit behind a runner. Don Drysdale comes to mind. But there weren't many like him. Baseball was a far more strategic game before the advent of the DH.
Good point.
 
Stolen bases and bunts just go against the basic tennant of analytics, do not give up outs. By giving up outs you are reducing you chances to score runs in the most simplistic analysis. Until someone can prove analytically that stealing and bunting help you score runs at a better percentage than not giving up those outs they will continue to evaporate from the game. I understand stealing is not an automatic out but you have to be successful a high percentage of time in order for it to be worth it. Managing in the majors has become mostly obsolete, you just look at the statistical analysis that is given to you, robots could manage in the majors
 
"were a few pitchers who could handle the bat well enough to hit behind a runner".....that's why the old professor would often bat whitey eight ahead of the "second socker from sumter":)

btw, believe the dh has added a little more strategy 2 game....although I inhertenetly dislike the
I think it has diminished it. I used to love the way managers pulled the double switch in such a way as to get the stronger hitter to come up where the pitcher would have come up. They can still pull the double switch, but don't do it as much as they once did.
 
Stolen bases and bunts just go against the basic tennant of analytics, do not give up outs. By giving up outs you are reducing you chances to score runs in the most simplistic analysis. Until someone can prove analytically that stealing and bunting help you score runs at a better percentage than not giving up those outs they will continue to evaporate from the game. I understand stealing is not an automatic out but you have to be successful a high percentage of time in order for it to be worth it. Managing in the majors has become mostly obsolete, you just look at the statistical analysis that is given to you, robots could manage in the majors
I'd have a lousy pitcher bunt but generally I would use it sparingly. But a good base stealer can rattle the pitcher and the defense behind him. How do you measure that? That has to count for something.
 
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I think it has diminished it. I used to love the way managers pulled the double switch in such a way as to get the stronger hitter to come up where the pitcher would have come up. They can still pull the double switch, but don't do it as much as they once did.

mid 60's classic double switch, al mcbean is pitchin' .... mgr. danny murtaugh comes out 2 bring n new pitcher, sends mcbean 2 left field, next batter danny brings mcbean back n 2 pitch & puts n a new left fielder
 
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I think the biggest piece of that study that is understated is that.... it's 'professional baseball'. That's the best pitching in the world and hits come at a premium. Batting averages are typically much more higher than pros.

MLB batting average in 2016 was .255

Couldn't find a robust one for College Baseball (and i don't feel like calculating it right now)
http://www.ncaa.com/stats/baseball/d1/current/team/210
You have to go to team #244 until you hit a team average of .255

With that much discrepancy, the % for college baseball would mean get a batter to a scoring position at any cost... even at the sacrifice of an out.

That doesn't get into a higher fielding error rate for college baseball. Balls come off the metal bats faster which means less reaction time for fielders.

Make sense for MLB but college baseball is a completely different beast.

This makes absolutely no sense. Your conclusions are way off. It's because offenses are advantaged at the college level that bunting is a terrible decision.

On balance, the best college teams have a higher OPS than MLB teams. This is due to an overall lack of pitching depth and talent at the college level. Which means, in simplest terms, a college player is more likely to do something productive at the plate-- e.g. walk or hit.

Take South Carolina, a bad offensive team this year. They still have an OBP of 34%. Which is better than all but 4 MLB teams.

Even with a bad team, you have a reasonable expectation that 34% of the time something good is happen at the plate. Why in God's name would you ever give up a 34% chance for something good for a 100% bad outcome?

On balance, the idea of a "productive" out is a remnant of time when we ignored or avoided relevant information.
 
This makes absolutely no sense. Your conclusions are way off. It's because offenses are advantaged at the college level that bunting is a terrible decision.

On balance, the best college teams have a higher OPS than MLB teams. This is due to an overall lack of pitching depth and talent at the college level. Which means, in simplest terms, a college player is more likely to do something productive at the plate-- e.g. walk or hit.

Take South Carolina, a bad offensive team this year. They still have an OBP of 34%. Which is better than all but 4 MLB teams.

Even with a bad team, you have a reasonable expectation that 34% of the time something good is happen at the plate. Why in God's name would you ever give up a 34% chance for something good for a 100% bad outcome?

On balance, the idea of a "productive" out is a remnant of time when we ignored or avoided relevant information.
I'm not saying college should be looking at bunting every chance they get. The only conclusion I was making that the stats found for MLB can't be applied at the college level.

Makes absolutely no sense?
If we do dig into your logic, you are only applying your % on a single level. The goal is to get runs. Just because 'something good' can happen at the plate 34% of the time doesn't mean you should just hit away. If you take multiple base hits out of the equation; to get a single run by doing something 'good' at the plate means you hitting that 34% mark FOUR times before you score a run.

Ever watch the movie 21? The professor at the beginning gives a simple explanation at the beginning of one of his classes (Monty Hall Problem) This concept is one of the big pieces of why small ball is actually used. The % work out well again. There's a 1/3 chance that you will get a hit. 2/3 chances you will get an out. Let's say you do get a hit. Now, you have a man on base. You technically have to hit that 1/3 3 more times to get the runner in. You can continue to hit and take your chances or change your approach and bunt. Let's be EXTREMELY pessimistic that there's only 1/2 chance you will get to move the runner to 2nd. You are almost for sure getting an out from the bunt. That's still a better chance to move that runner to 2nd than letting him swing away. Even though you now have an out you've change the whole dynamic on the field. Continuing with the single base hits... now you only have to have 2 more hits at 33% to score a run. Before it was 3 hits at 33% with 0 outs.

Moving beyond that, you've got a deeper level of % and situations that you have to account for.
There's always the chance of it actually being a good bunt and the runner making it to first without an out. There could be a throwing error to first and the player on 2nd advances to third or maybe even home.
You've also eliminated an easy potential double play if your 66% non-hit puts it straight into a fielders glove. Your single just turned into two outs.
With a runner on first, there's almost no where on the field that the runner can still tag and make it to second on a pop fly.
If he's on 2nd? Your 66% non-hit to right field STILL did good and pushed the runner to 3rd. Now you just need one more hit at 33% to get that wonderful run.

Again, everything is situational, if you have some batters that have been hitting .400+ for the weekend, chances are the coach isn't going to do it.

Another big concept is simply putting the ball in play to let the defense make a mistake. Simply hitting away hoping for a good outcome doesn't fit well if runs are a rare commodity in a game and fighting against a good pitcher.

South Carolina won the NC in 2010 because of small ball. (and a few clutch hits) Period. Yes, Tanner could have tried approaching it and let his players swing away at let them hit.
If that was the case, it could have been 2006 all over again.

Simply saying it makes no sense goes against a lot strategy baseball is built on.
 
I'd have a lousy pitcher bunt but generally I would use it sparingly. But a good base stealer can rattle the pitcher and the defense behind him. How do you measure that? That has to count for something.
Think how many throwing errors result from that.
 
I'm not saying college should be looking at bunting every chance they get. The only conclusion I was making that the stats found for MLB can't be applied at the college level.

Makes absolutely no sense?
If we do dig into your logic, you are only applying your % on a single level. The goal is to get runs. Just because 'something good' can happen at the plate 34% of the time doesn't mean you should just hit away. If you take multiple base hits out of the equation; to get a single run by doing something 'good' at the plate means you hitting that 34% mark FOUR times before you score a run.

Ever watch the movie 21? The professor at the beginning gives a simple explanation at the beginning of one of his classes (Monty Hall Problem) This concept is one of the big pieces of why small ball is actually used. The % work out well again. There's a 1/3 chance that you will get a hit. 2/3 chances you will get an out. Let's say you do get a hit. Now, you have a man on base. You technically have to hit that 1/3 3 more times to get the runner in. You can continue to hit and take your chances or change your approach and bunt. Let's be EXTREMELY pessimistic that there's only 1/2 chance you will get to move the runner to 2nd. You are almost for sure getting an out from the bunt. That's still a better chance to move that runner to 2nd than letting him swing away. Even though you now have an out you've change the whole dynamic on the field. Continuing with the single base hits... now you only have to have 2 more hits at 33% to score a run. Before it was 3 hits at 33% with 0 outs.

Moving beyond that, you've got a deeper level of % and situations that you have to account for.
There's always the chance of it actually being a good bunt and the runner making it to first without an out. There could be a throwing error to first and the player on 2nd advances to third or maybe even home.
You've also eliminated an easy potential double play if your 66% non-hit puts it straight into a fielders glove. Your single just turned into two outs.
With a runner on first, there's almost no where on the field that the runner can still tag and make it to second on a pop fly.
If he's on 2nd? Your 66% non-hit to right field STILL did good and pushed the runner to 3rd. Now you just need one more hit at 33% to get that wonderful run.

Again, everything is situational, if you have some batters that have been hitting .400+ for the weekend, chances are the coach isn't going to do it.

Another big concept is simply putting the ball in play to let the defense make a mistake. Simply hitting away hoping for a good outcome doesn't fit well if runs are a rare commodity in a game and fighting against a good pitcher.

South Carolina won the NC in 2010 because of small ball. (and a few clutch hits) Period. Yes, Tanner could have tried approaching it and let his players swing away at let them hit.
If that was the case, it could have been 2006 all over again.

Simply saying it makes no sense goes against a lot strategy baseball is built on.

First of all 21 is a terrible movie.

Second of all, you're missing the point of the studies and analysis. You seem to be operating under the assumption that a runner on second with one out is an advantageous situation. It's not. First and second with no outs is an advantageous situation. That's what it comes down to. If you think trying to sacrifice to put a runner on second with one out is a good thing, then you really cannot be reasoned with. It doesn't matter what level you're talking about.
 
First of all 21 is a terrible movie.

Second of all, you're missing the point of the studies and analysis. You seem to be operating under the assumption that a runner on second with one out is an advantageous situation. It's not. First and second with no outs is an advantageous situation. That's what it comes down to. If you think trying to sacrifice to put a runner on second with one out is a good thing, then you really cannot be reasoned with. It doesn't matter what level you're talking about.
Didn't say 21 was a great movie, just was giving a simple point about why small ball is used.

Of course having a runner on first and second with no outs is an advantageous situation. And you are right... that's what it comes down to.
The chances of getting a runner at first and second with a batting percentage of .333 is LESS likely than someone getting at hit at .333 and bunting that runner over to 2nd and getting and out.

How do you possibly reason that getting a runner on second is not a good thing? Simply because there's an out? Then you didn't understand one thing I mention above.

Playing small ball is rolling the dice and doing what you can to put runners in scoring positions. Hit and runs and stealing bases comes into this as well.

It does matter what level i'm talking about. If you have a runner at first and you continue to hit, you are increasing the odds that a double play might happen. This exactly why you have teams intentionally walk someone at crucial moments in the game when there's a runner on second with no one on first.

Again, it's purely situational.
 
According to Dan Levitt of baseballanalysts.com, using a study that gathered information over 15 years of professional baseball, the expected run table for an inning sets at .877 in situations where there is a runner at first with no outs. However, if you decide to bunt the runner over, your expected run table for the inning drops to .693 with a runner on second and one out.

In essence, you are voluntarily killing your own rally.

In addition to the expected run table, basic percentages say that the sac bunt is the wrong play. According to Baseball Prospectus, you have a 24.4 percent better chance of scoring a runner from first with no outs than you have of scoring a runner from second with one out. 24.4 percent! Swing away.

I've been preaching the same thing for decades without the data to back it up simply based on my experience as a pitcher. Unless the guy bunting in an opposing pitcher with very low batting average, it's a stupid move. I always felt the other team was doing me a favor when they'd bunt. My coaches would preach it too in terms of the way they wanted their pitcher to approach the hitter. The saying was, "They are trying to give you an out, so let them." In other words, don't get cute with the pitch selection or location. If they square around to bunt, throw them a strike and let them do it. Take the out every time and shorten the inning.

The other aspect of this that comes into play is that, by taking the bat out of a hitter's hands, you eliminate the possibility of a home run, an extra base hit that could score the runner from 1st, a steal, pass ball, or wild pitch that could move the runner over without sacrificing an out, or the hitter reaching base via an error which is far more common below the MLB level because the defense isn't as good. Granted, by bunting you reduce the odds of a double play, but bunts don't always work out. How many times have we seen hitters end up striking out (often via a foul tip on strike 3), popping up, or bunting the ball too hard or too soft where they still have time to get the lead runner?

That doesn't mean teams should give up on small ball entirely. I like baserunners to be aggressive with steals, stretching for the extra base and forcing the defense to make a perfect throw to 3rd or home, I like to bunt for a base hit with a speedy left-handed batter or even try an occasional suicide squeeze. And there are late inning situations in a tied game or when trailing by a single run where I would bunt. But I think bunting is an overused tactic, especially at the youth, HS or college level where pitching and defense is so imperfect and so much can happen by simply swinging away.

I could also rant all day about how major league players can't execute a run-down properly but that's another topic.
 
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I've been preaching the same thing for decades without the data to back it up simply based on my experience as a pitcher. Unless the guy bunting in an opposing pitcher with very low batting average, it's a stupid move. I always felt the other team was doing me a favor when they'd bunt. My coaches would preach it too in terms of the way they wanted their pitcher to approach the hitter. The saying was, "They are trying to give you an out, so let them." In other words, don't get cute with the pitch selection or location. If they square around to bunt, throw them a strike and let them do it. Take the out every time and shorten the inning.

The other aspect of this that comes into play is that, by taking the bat out of a hitter's hands, you eliminate the possibility of a home run, an extra base hit that could score the runner from 1st, a steal, pass ball, or wild pitch that could move the runner over without sacrificing an out, or the hitter reaching base via an error which is far more common below the MLB level because the defense isn't as good. Granted, by bunting you reduce the odds of a double play, but bunts don't always work out. How many times have we seen hitters end up striking out (often via a foul tip on strike 3), popping up, or bunting the ball too hard or too soft where they still have time to get the lead runner?

That doesn't mean teams should give up on small ball entirely. I like baserunners to be aggressive with steals, stretching for the extra base and forcing the defense to make a perfect throw to 3rd or home, I like to bunt for a base hit with a speedy left-handed batter or even try an occasional suicide squeeze. And there are late inning situations in a tied game or when trailing by a single run where I would bunt. But I think bunting is an overused tactic, especially at the youth, HS or college level where pitching and defense is so imperfect and so much can happen by simply swinging away.

I could also rant all day about how major league players can't execute a run-down properly but that's another topic.
 
I'd like to think there's a 0% chance Ray hires a coach that is solely dependent on getting a timely hit and who'll likely find his team unprepared when his timely hit philosophy isn't working. I think it's fair to say because we play in the SEC, play against some ACC teams, play throughout one of the best baseball states in the nation and ultimately go deep into the playoffs against the best teams in the nation, we're going to see good pitching. We must be open to all solutions to defeat that... not just get a hit.
 
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