Can anyone explain why......

[uscalumni]

Frank Martin has so many Jekyll Hyde starts just about every year in basketball. I have been a big thumbs down person for him the last 2 years but I will take wins anyway we can get them. So frustrating to see what the team can accomplish only to see yearly losses to lower tier teams.

USCALUMNI

 

[92Pony]

It’s maddening.

 

[Expro19]

T

Frank Martin has so many Jekyll Hyde starts just about every year in basketball. I have been a big thumbs down person for him the last 2 years but I will take wins anyway we can get them. So frustrating to see what the team can accomplish only to see yearly losses to lower tier teams.

USCALUMNI

The players taking too long to buy in.. Hopefully that's over and they see what they are capable of.... They were trying to do it there way now they seem to be doing things right... Defensively, I know teams have to hate playing us... We are physical and most players hate that.

 

[Legendary Cock]

T

The players taking too long to buy in.. Hopefully that's over and they see what they are capable of.... They were trying to do it there way now they seem to be doing things right... Defensively, I know teams have to hate playing us... We are physical and most players hate that.

Stop blaming the players. They're not the ones that are getting paid millions to win games. It's Frank's job to motivate his players and teach them how to play the game the right way. I've defended him over the years, but these ridiculous Jekyll and Hyde starts are on him, not the amateur players.

The good thing is, he's seemed to be backing his players lately (at least, a little bit) and going after these ridiculous refs in these last two wins. I hope he keeps that up because he's proven that he's got it in him to take his teams a long way. Like Ray Tanner did in baseball, Frank needs to lighten the F up.

 

[treetop flier]

No

 

[GeauxCocks7]

Obviously Frank doesn't care about making the tournament. It seems he actually tries to make this difficult for himself, and he works for a p**** a** AD who won't fire anyone

 

[anon_n4c0cp5zhdxn7]

Obviously Frank doesn't care about making the tournament. It seems he actually tries to make this difficult for himself, and he works for a p**** a** AD who won't fire anyone

 

[Expro19]

Stop blaming the players. They're not the ones that are getting paid millions to win games. It's Frank's job to motivate his players and teach them how to play the game the right way. I've defended him over the years, but these ridiculous Jekyll and Hyde starts are on him, not the amateur players.

The good thing is, he's seemed to be backing his players lately (at least, a little bit) and going after these ridiculous refs in these last two wins. I hope he keeps that up because he's proven that he's got it in him to take his teams a long way. Like Ray Tanner did in baseball, Frank needs to lighten the F up.

Ever occur to you the reason he isn't yelling and screaming as much is because the players are doing things they are supposed to... I know that doesn't fit your fire Frank narrative but it's true. Last 2 games prove that if you are doing what you are supposed to, the yelling stops .. Crazy how that works.

 

[Horseshoe 04]

There’s only one KoStar on this team

we have had to turn to a redshirt freshman for a leader

There is only one Thornwell

 

[fowl_mood]

I think he always has a hole to fill and he tries to plug in whoever he thinks can fit. It's point guard this year. Lawson is no point guard and it's really hurt his production. When he uses Cousinard or Bolden at off guard they play well. Whether it's bigs, forwards or points, plug and play leads to inconsistencies.

 

[Sarge88]

Frank is a old school coach in a new age world. Player's know exactly what they are getting into when they sign up. I think it does take some time to adjust to the screaming and yelling especially during a game in front of a few thousand fans. He uses the military approach, beat um down then build em up. But that's the ONE thing I like about the guy, he is what he is, nothing fake about him. Like it or not.

 

[Expro19]

Obviously Frank doesn't care about making the tournament. It seems he actually tries to make this difficult for himself, and he works for a p**** a** AD who won't fire anyone

Really.. Frank doesn't want to make the tournament.. That's your take? Do you expect to be taken seriously

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

Stop blaming the players. They're not the ones that are getting paid millions to win games. It's Frank's job to motivate his players and teach them how to play the game the right way. I've defended him over the years, but these ridiculous Jekyll and Hyde starts are on him, not the amateur players.

The good thing is, he's seemed to be backing his players lately (at least, a little bit) and going after these ridiculous refs in these last two wins. I hope he keeps that up because he's proven that he's got it in him to take his teams a long way. Like Ray Tanner did in baseball, Frank needs to lighten the F up.

I have been down on Martin and some things he has done this year on the court... It has been one of his worst coaching jobs here by far to this point broadly speaking... BUT it is not fair to say “don’t blame the players”. It is certainly a combination of coaching and poor execution BY THE PLAYERS that lead to the terrible losses we have on our resume at this point.

For instance; the number of missed shots and missed free throws- directly on the shoulders of the players. “Amateur” or not (laughable at this point to act like college players do this just for the honor of getting an education- College basketball is. The most corrupt sport outside of FIFA soccer..), our players are not immune to the traps of benefits awarded to talented college and AAU players. Regardless- a coach can teach and put guys in position to be effective. Frank has failed to do that in some situations this year but the players have failed to execute when put in good situations just as often as Frank has failed them. I never have and never will adhere to the philosophy of heaping all blame on coaches and none on players.

It feels like we are making a potentially more effective complaint because the AD can only fire coaches... the players kind of are who have until they graduate (or decide to transfer), we cannot fire or trade players like they do in the pros... so perhaps it feels futile to complain about the players not performing as a fan but to say “stop blaming the players” when half the blame clearly falls on their shoulders is ridiculous IMO.

 

[Legendary Cock]

Ever occur to you the reason he isn't yelling and screaming as much is because the players are doing things they are supposed to... I know that doesn't fit your fire Frank narrative but it's true. Last 2 games prove that if you are doing what you are supposed to, the yelling stops .. Crazy how that works.

Ok. So it's all the amateur players' fault then. Gotcha.

 

[OldWiseCock]

Stop blaming the players. They're not the ones that are getting paid millions to win games. It's Frank's job to motivate his players and teach them how to play the game the right way. I've defended him over the years, but these ridiculous Jekyll and Hyde starts are on him, not the amateur players.

The good thing is, he's seemed to be backing his players lately (at least, a little bit) and going after these ridiculous refs in these last two wins. I hope he keeps that up because he's proven that he's got it in him to take his teams a long way. Like Ray Tanner did in baseball, Frank needs to lighten the F up.

I don't think it is 100% the players fault. But Frank's style is demanding of players. His teams always play better when they have been together for a year or two. It does require "buying in" and some sacrifice.

At the same time, Frank does need to yell less and suffer a mistake or two without the hook. I saw some bad shots yesterday and mistakes on defense and Frank didn't immediately pull the player because he didn't have anyone else. Maybe he has learned something about his team as much as they have learned about him.

Anyway, Jalyn McCreary is going to be a good player for SC. I like that he cut his hair (I'm old school) as it is a sign he is committed to the team. Couisnard is becoming my favorite player. He reminds me of Roche when he blew a kiss to the student section after he made a 3 pointer.

There are some talented guys on the team and sometimes that means it takes them time to learn the meaning of "team".

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

Really.. Frank doesn't want to make the tournament.. That's your take? Do you expect to be taken seriously

Agreed- even after a couple good wins people cannot keep the frustration at bay and continue to spout off insanity. No coach WANTS to lose... (except sometimes in the pros when the season is going poorly, and they tank the rest of the way to get a too pick I guess? Which is another commentary on how insane their setup is in pro FB and BB)... Martin certainly does want to make the dance... SMH...

 

[Legendary Cock]

I have been down on Martin and some things he has done this year on the court... It has been one of his worst coaching jobs here by far to this point broadly speaking... BUT it is not fair to say “don’t blame the players”. It is certainly a combination of coaching and poor execution BY THE PLAYERS that lead to the terrible losses we have on our resume at this point.

For instance; the number of missed shots and missed free throws- directly on the shoulders of the players. “Amateur” or not (laughable at this point to act like college players do this just for the honor of getting an education- College basketball is. The most corrupt sport outside of FIFA soccer..), our players are not immune to the traps of benefits awarded to talented college and AAU players. Regardless- a coach can teach and put guys in position to be effective. Frank has failed to do that in some situations this year but the players have failed to execute when put in good situations just as often as Frank has failed them. I never have and never will adhere to the philosophy of heaping all blame on coaches and none on players.

It feels like we are making a potentially more effective complaint because the AD can only fire coaches... the players kind of are who have until they graduate (or decide to transfer), we cannot fire or trade players like they do in the pros... so perhaps it feels futile to complain about the players not performing as a fan but to say “stop blaming the players” when half the blame clearly falls on their shoulders is ridiculous IMO.

When players start tuning out a coach, it's a sign that the coach is losing their team. And that's in the coach. They are the ones paid to lead and win.

And yes. These are amateur athletes. They still have to go to class and study and pass their classes. And despite the perks they get as Div. I athletes, their time that they can spend with their teammates and coaches in organized meetings and practices are limited down to the minute. Professional players don't have this barrier. And they get paid as well.

 

[hobcawcreekcock]

Player attrition is the main issue imo. He has to start over every season. FM expects and demands hard nosed defense, communication, and 100% effort from his players. In that process each season, new guys, or younger players are in the learning mode. Frank will sit your ass down if he feels that is best for the team and the player. That philosophy has cost him some early season games. Example, he sat Bolden for the UK game, Frink has been in the doghouse this year. Players that buy in, play balls out, get the PT. See Kotsar as an example.

I just hope it wasn't too late like last season for this team to play FM style ball. Going to have to win 12 games or so in the SEC, not going to be easy, but two nice wins in a row indicate HOPE!

Not many coaches place a player/team development over wins and losses. Pre-SEC season, or out of conference games are his time to experiment with line ups, chemistry, and 'benching' lessons.

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

When players start tuning out a coach, it's a sign that the coach is losing their team. And that's in the coach. They are the ones paid to lead and win.

And yes. These are amateur athletes. They still have to go to class and study and pass their classes. And despite the perks they get as Div. I athletes, their time that they can spend with their teammates and coaches in organized meetings and practices are limited down to the minute. Professional players don't have this barrier. And they get paid as well.

None of that means they are absolved from blame when they fail to execute at the level they should or when they make a terrible decision or play that costs their team the game. An extreme example- the Ole Piss (that nickname took a different meaning after this) player in the egg bowl who scored what should have been the winning TD and acted like a dog pissing on the end zone logo after... Lead to a penalty, a missed extra point and Miss St eventually won because of that... That was the COACH’s fault? NO. That coach I guarantee you has NEVER given his players any coaching or direction that this was acceptable or encouraged. So the coach lost his job for it in the end (that was the capping loss that pushed him out anyway)- but it also cost his teammates a win over their rival. That was ON THE PLAYER and he deserves 100% of the blame.
A less extreme example from our team- Justin Minaya’s struggles from 3. Up until the past two games he was absolutely AWFUL from 3!! You think he and the other players blame FRANK for that?? Hell no! He/they know that is on JUSTIN. He needs to make more of those and if he had, we might have easily won some games we lost earlier in the year. But because he was in a slump, we lost and Frank is the one taking most the heat. Coaching is half the battle... Players still have to execute and they deserve half the blame when things go poorly.

 

[Expro19]

Ok. So it's all the amateur players' fault then. Gotcha.

Yes the 2 bad losses are on the players, or the amateurs as you put it... If they were playing like they are now they wouldn't have lost. How hard is that to understand.. Frank Martin can't granny hoop free throws for SEC scholarship athletes.

 

[Expro19]

None of that means they are absolved from blame when they fail to execute at the level they should or when they make a terrible decision or play that costs their team the game. An extreme example- the Ole Piss (that nickname took a different meaning after this) player in the egg bowl who scored what should have been the winning TD and acted like a dog pissing on the end zone logo after... Lead to a penalty, a missed extra point and Miss St eventually won because of that... That was the COACH’s fault? NO. That coach I guarantee you has NEVER given his players any coaching or direction that this was acceptable or encouraged. So the coach lost his job for it in the end (that was the capping loss that pushed him out anyway)- but it also cost his teammates a win over their rival. That was ON THE PLAYER and he deserves 100% of the blame.
A less extreme example from our team- Justin Minaya’s struggles from 3. Up until the past two games he was absolutely AWFUL from 3!! You think he and the other players blame FRANK for that?? Hell no! He/they know that is on JUSTIN. He needs to make more of those and if he had, we might have easily won some games we lost earlier in the year. But because he was in a slump, we lost and Frank is the one taking most the heat. Coaching is half the battle... Players still have to execute and they deserve half the blame when things go poorly.

I think we may be waisting our time on this Legendary guy.

 

[Legendary Cock]

Yes the 2 bad losses are on the players, or the amateurs as you put it... If they were playing like they are now they wouldn't have lost. How hard is that to understand.. Frank Martin can't granny hoop free throws for SEC scholarship athletes.

Hell, what do we need coaches for then? What good are they when it's all on the players? Let's save ourselves millions of dollars and let the kids organize and coach themselves.

 

[Expro19]

Hell, what do we need coaches for then? What good are they when it's all on the players? Let's save ourselves millions of dollars and let the kids organize and coach themselves.

Why do we need to recruit then since the coach is the only reason we win or lose.. Let's just go get a random 5 high school players .. our coach should still be able to win every game and if he can't, he sucks.... Stupid just plain dumb..

 

[Gamekem]

I second the attrition rate is the biggest problem. Hard to build something when you have no core to work with. This year's team for example has one true senior , one 3 year guy(whose coming back from injury) and literally everybody else is only in their first or second year in the program. No team chemistry and no leadership is what really hurt these teams and by the time the team finds it, it's too little too late. A young team isn't bad if you have the recruiting talent to back it up. This year's team would be completely different and more experienced if guys like Felder, Haase or even a Beatty remained on the roster. Then in that scenario we would be looking at a team that consisted of 4.5 upperclassmen that really understands what FM wants vs. 1.5 upperclassmen we have now. Hopefully guys on the roster are starting to buy into the system now and hopefully Frank can get better at keeping players for the long term.

 

[USC75Grad]

Hell, what do we need coaches for then? What good are they when it's all on the players? Let's save ourselves millions of dollars and let the kids organize and coach themselves.

Excellent post !! I agree 100%. The "accept mediocrity posters" cannot accept the fact that it all boils down to who the coach is. They believe we should just let the players run the program. That might just happen when the players start getting paid, but not now.

 

[USC75Grad]

Why do we need to recruit then since the coach is the only reason we win or lose.. Let's just go get a random 5 high school players .. our coach should still be able to win every game and if he can't, he sucks.... Stupid just plain dumb..

You just don't get it.

 

[Expro19]

You just don't get it.

I get it, got it , done had it... Good debate dude

 

[salvacock]

Have you ever heard of playing freshman and players that recently transferred. It takes a while for them to learn the system and to adjust to the game and to jell. Thornwell told us before the season that we had good players but not to expect automatic wins because they were young.

 

[Legendary Cock]

Why do we need to recruit then since the coach is the only reason we win or lose.. Let's just go get a random 5 high school players .. our coach should still be able to win every game and if he can't, he sucks.... Stupid just plain dumb..

So the coach is only responsible for recruiting but not actual coaching, developing talent and winning?

No wonder so many of you want to keep Muschamp. Talk about stupid.

 

[Expro19]

So the coach is only responsible for recruiting but not actual coaching, developing talent and winning?

No wonder so many of you want to keep Muschamp. Talk about stupid.

No, but at some point you have to hold the players accountable.. surely you know that.

 

[Expro19]

So the coach is only responsible for recruiting but not actual coaching, developing talent and winning?

No wonder so many of you want to keep Muschamp. Talk about stupid.

 

[uscnoklahoma2]

Its the same thing every year, no matter who the players are. There's one fixed part in this. Rinse and repeat. Its not that hard to see unless you're an expro.

 

[Expro19]

Its the same thing every year, no matter who the players are. There's one fixed part in this. Rinse and repeat. Its not that hard to see unless you're an expro.

If you don't see the difference in there play now and Stetson then your mind can't be changed. Stay miserable my friend.

 

[uscnoklahoma2]

If you don't see the difference in there play now and Stetson then your mind can't be changed. Stay miserable my friend.

You really don't understand do you. Its the same thing every freaking year. You just made our point. Can you not see that?

 

[Expro19]

You really don't understand do you. Its the same thing every freaking year. You just made our point. Can you not see that?

Did you really come in on the ass end of a conversation and try to start the debate all over again..... Go argue your shit with someone else. Your mind isn't gonna change and I'm not going to repeat the debate to try.. Just be miserable by yourself.

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

No, but at some point you have to hold the players accountable.. surely you know that.

He knows that, and our coaches know it too. The players know it is on them to execute or we will not win. I don’t think anyone has ever said no responsibility lies on the coaches in this. The point being made is that it simply is not fair to say you cannot blame the players for any of it. The AD can NOT hold players “accountable” for poor results by firing them, and I think that leads to some fans thinking that we- as fans- should direct all of our frustration at the coaches. Most of it, YES... But you have to call a spade a spade. Bad play by players is just as open to my commentary as bad coaching is. Does not mean I hate my team or that player or that I don’t appreciate him... Just means I think a D1 athlete at this level should be able to hit a freaking free throw sometimes! Or should control his emotions well enough to not lift his leg in the end zone and cost his whole team a victory against their rival that hurts the whole team, costs his coach his job and hurts the entire fan base. We are well within our rights to say something when we see it.

 

[Expro19]

He knows that, and our coaches know it too. The players know it is on them to execute or we will not win. I don’t think anyone has ever said no responsibility lies on the coaches in this. The point being made is that it simply is not fair to say you cannot blame the players for any of it. The AD can NOT hold players “accountable” for poor results by firing them, and I think that leads to some fans thinking that we- as fans- should direct all of our frustration at the coaches. Most of it, YES... But you have to cal a spade a spade. Bad play by players is just as open to my commentary as bad coaching is. Does not mean I hate my team or that player or that I don’t appreciate him... Just means I think a D1 athlete at this level should be able to hit a freaking free throw sometimes! Or should control his emotions well enough to not lift his leg in the end zone and cost his whole team a victory against their rival that hurts the whole team, costs his coach his job and hurts the entire fan base. We are well within our rights to say something when we see it.

Well said..

 

[USC75Grad]

He knows that, and our coaches know it too. The players know it is on them to execute or we will not win. I don’t think anyone has ever said no responsibility lies on the coaches in this. The point being made is that it simply is not fair to say you cannot blame the players for any of it. The AD can NOT hold players “accountable” for poor results by firing them, and I think that leads to some fans thinking that we- as fans- should direct all of our frustration at the coaches. Most of it, YES... But you have to call a spade a spade. Bad play by players is just as open to my commentary as bad coaching is. Does not mean I hate my team or that player or that I don’t appreciate him... Just means I think a D1 athlete at this level should be able to hit a freaking free throw sometimes! Or should control his emotions well enough to not lift his leg in the end zone and cost his whole team a victory against their rival that hurts the whole team, costs his coach his job and hurts the entire fan base. We are well within our rights to say something when we see it.

Constantly bad plays by constantly bad players should warrant their sitting on the bench, or kicked off the team. That is the COACH responsibility !

 

[anon_n4c0cp5zhdxn7]

Constantly bad plays by constantly bad players should warrant their sitting on the bench, or kicked off the team. That is the COACH responsibility !

Nice.

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

Nice.

Nailed it!