Gamecock Baseball. I don't know why. I don't know how. But the evidence is mounting. And the tipping point is coming when the best players will no longer give us a second look. Ray Tanner may be as blind to this as Spurrier was to John Hunt's inadequacy coaching the O-line. I don't know. But I do know Holbrook is leading us deeper and deeper into a hole.
Holbrook is slowly but surely killing
- Thread starter supermangrantz
- Start date
Never hear anything from Ray do we? Berson is another example. He's killed our men's soccer program, but guess what, he's still the coach. Does Tanner plan on firing anybody during his tenure? Or is he too nice and buddy buddy with the coaches.
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Posted from Rivals Mobile
To be fair to Berson, he's been here for nearly 40 years. He's literally the only coach we've ever hard. Yeah, his teams in recent years haven't been as good as they used to be. But when a guy hangs around for that long it's pretty hard to just up and fire him. It would be like Penn State firing Paterno.
Well, now, hold it, fellas. Tanner wanted, and got, a cushy job as AD. No more finger-biting 9th inning miracles to worry about. Fighting it out on the road to win needed series' vs SEC powerhouses - that's now somebody elses job - not Ray's. Unfortunately, for the fans, he failed to realize that the buck stops where he sits. So, here WE sit, in an ever shrinking crowd at Carolina Stadium, wondering, 'Wha' happened?'
I'm just concerned that our people at the helm (from top to bottom) don't have that sense of gut-wrenching anxiety that's necessary to put out a consistent winner in all sports. It's no picnic in the SEC - NEVER a moment to relax at the lake.
Berson still being soccer coach is a JOKE. I give him credit for building
the program from a club team to a once national power. But from the high point the program has fallen way down. Just as it's bad to have politicians serve for 30-40 years it's not good to have coaches serve that long. USC's soccer program is a mid-level program at best now and can't even recruit the top talent in S.C. The program DESPERATELY needs new blood at the helm. For an AD to sit there and say he want to challenge for championships across the board and allow Berson to stay is beyond me.
I also agree that the baseball program is slipping. The focus doesn't seem to be there. Over the last couple years a lot of games have been blown late. I look at the rankings and some of these programs have come out of nowhere. With our facilities and fan base how are we not able to recruit the very best? And before someone yells "tater" the one thing constantly winning programs have is that their fans and administration don't accept mediocrity in any form. I was very appreciative of what June Raines did for our program but at a certain point we began slipping a little here and a little there. Then we were just a mid-level program. We lost 2 of 3 to a bad Clemson team. We've blown a lot of late leads to lose games to unranked teams. Do we just shrug our shoulders and say oh well this stuff happens or do we ask honest questions and wonder if this is a sign that perhaps there are some things wrong with the program that needs to be addressed.
the program from a club team to a once national power. But from the high point the program has fallen way down. Just as it's bad to have politicians serve for 30-40 years it's not good to have coaches serve that long. USC's soccer program is a mid-level program at best now and can't even recruit the top talent in S.C. The program DESPERATELY needs new blood at the helm. For an AD to sit there and say he want to challenge for championships across the board and allow Berson to stay is beyond me.
I also agree that the baseball program is slipping. The focus doesn't seem to be there. Over the last couple years a lot of games have been blown late. I look at the rankings and some of these programs have come out of nowhere. With our facilities and fan base how are we not able to recruit the very best? And before someone yells "tater" the one thing constantly winning programs have is that their fans and administration don't accept mediocrity in any form. I was very appreciative of what June Raines did for our program but at a certain point we began slipping a little here and a little there. Then we were just a mid-level program. We lost 2 of 3 to a bad Clemson team. We've blown a lot of late leads to lose games to unranked teams. Do we just shrug our shoulders and say oh well this stuff happens or do we ask honest questions and wonder if this is a sign that perhaps there are some things wrong with the program that needs to be addressed.
Re: Berson still being soccer coach is a JOKE. I give him credit for building
As anyone who knows baseball can tell you, the only thing that matters is peaking at the right time. Obviously we're not peaking now. Hopefully we will play our best when it really matters.
Losing all of the in-state games and losing the series to Clemson isn't good or acceptable, but I'm not terribly concerned yet. The dirty secret is that Tanner also consistently lost mid-week games to instate schools. That does happen. I don't like the volume at which it has happened this year, but I'm not in panic mode either.
As anyone who knows baseball can tell you, the only thing that matters is peaking at the right time. Obviously we're not peaking now. Hopefully we will play our best when it really matters.
well lets just jump on tanners butt for not winning the regionals in 2008 and 2009 then, but im pretty everyone did, threw him under the bus and wanted him gone, but two national champ and a runner up later....and now u want to throw holbrook under the bus, good things come to those who are patient, you sir are not
Did someone just post a cut and paste from the Darrin Horn excuse page?
The really dominant athletic programs see the train coming and stepping off the track before the collision......See the defense this season.
Of course, when a lot of posters were pointing out over the previous two seasons that even with multiple NFL players across the field, the defense was not really stopping even average teams from moving up and down the field and we were head for problems....
The Darrin Horn brigade jumped down their throats too.
Look people can come to the realization now or in three years but Holbrook was not ask to rebuild anything.......he had the keys to a Bentley turned over to him with two back-to-back National Championships and coming off of another appearance in the Title game.......he had the ability to pick and choose the very best of the best across the nation in hitting and pitching players...and he is showing that he and his staff are not up to the task.
He will never have a better situation for attracting quality dominant players than he has had the past three years and to put it frankly, his hitting recruiting has been an F- while his pitching recruiting has drifted from a B+ to C.....
While he is not done yet....the trend is very bad and if he does not seek help in hitter analysis for recruits it is going down in flames....
The really dominant athletic programs see the train coming and stepping off the track before the collision......See the defense this season.
Of course, when a lot of posters were pointing out over the previous two seasons that even with multiple NFL players across the field, the defense was not really stopping even average teams from moving up and down the field and we were head for problems....
The Darrin Horn brigade jumped down their throats too.
Look people can come to the realization now or in three years but Holbrook was not ask to rebuild anything.......he had the keys to a Bentley turned over to him with two back-to-back National Championships and coming off of another appearance in the Title game.......he had the ability to pick and choose the very best of the best across the nation in hitting and pitching players...and he is showing that he and his staff are not up to the task.
He will never have a better situation for attracting quality dominant players than he has had the past three years and to put it frankly, his hitting recruiting has been an F- while his pitching recruiting has drifted from a B+ to C.....
While he is not done yet....the trend is very bad and if he does not seek help in hitter analysis for recruits it is going down in flames....
The season is not over and to give a "grade" prior to mid terms is unfair. However, for the sunshine pumpers to act as if there is no concern during year 3 is sticking your head in the sand. We are not a very good offensive team, we lose Schrock (in all likelihood), Martin, and Caldwell. This team may look like the 27 Yankees compared to next year. Stokes and Destino are going to have to carry the offense.
I agree the jury is still out on CH as the head man after 2 years. However, it has only been 2 years. I thought before I jumped on the anti CH bandwagon I'd do a little digging and i was surprised with what I found out. I only looked at conference records since I believe what we did over the whole season is in the toughest conference in baseball is what should count. Here is some of what I found.
RT's was here 12 years before CH arrived as an assistant. The last 4 years before CH got here our SEC winning % was .525 and during those 4 years was never higher than .5667. Was it clear that Ray had lost it and was slowly losing his grip on the program? Had the game passed him by? After all, RT previous best 4 year run was 2000-2003 and had an SEC winning % .6891. The program had clearly dropped off a cliff.
During RT's last 4 years , our SEC winning % jumped to .6555. Those last 4 years, CH was RT's top assistant. Maybe that is just a coincidence. Maybe it had nothing to do with the addition of an assistant that had helped UNC to 2 CWS finals. A place UNC has not returned to since he left but maybe that is just a coincidence as well.
Maybe it is a case of CH being a great assistant but not being able to cut it as the head guy. That may prove out but there isn't much evidence so far, let's look at CH's SEC winning %. CH has had a small sample size to go by as the head man but it ain't too shabby. A .5932 SEC winning % ain't bad for a new head man. For example, RT's 2 year runs before CH arrived are split dead even with 3 above and 3 below CH's .5932, with 2, count'em 2, ghastly 0.500 single year marks in 2 of the 3 years before CH arrived. Why we didn't fire RT then I'll never know. Crazy.
While the jury may still be out, there is pretty shabby evidence for a guilty verdict.
RT's was here 12 years before CH arrived as an assistant. The last 4 years before CH got here our SEC winning % was .525 and during those 4 years was never higher than .5667. Was it clear that Ray had lost it and was slowly losing his grip on the program? Had the game passed him by? After all, RT previous best 4 year run was 2000-2003 and had an SEC winning % .6891. The program had clearly dropped off a cliff.
During RT's last 4 years , our SEC winning % jumped to .6555. Those last 4 years, CH was RT's top assistant. Maybe that is just a coincidence. Maybe it had nothing to do with the addition of an assistant that had helped UNC to 2 CWS finals. A place UNC has not returned to since he left but maybe that is just a coincidence as well.
Maybe it is a case of CH being a great assistant but not being able to cut it as the head guy. That may prove out but there isn't much evidence so far, let's look at CH's SEC winning %. CH has had a small sample size to go by as the head man but it ain't too shabby. A .5932 SEC winning % ain't bad for a new head man. For example, RT's 2 year runs before CH arrived are split dead even with 3 above and 3 below CH's .5932, with 2, count'em 2, ghastly 0.500 single year marks in 2 of the 3 years before CH arrived. Why we didn't fire RT then I'll never know. Crazy.
While the jury may still be out, there is pretty shabby evidence for a guilty verdict.
Football is in limbo until we get a new coach. Recruiting will continue to suffer. 3 year comment bit us in the butt.
Basketball is improving but this is a long term building project.
Baseball seems to be getting worse every year under CH.
Then there's Dawn Staley. She's trending upward.
Ray needs a plan for football and baseball.
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Basketball is improving but this is a long term building project.
Baseball seems to be getting worse every year under CH.
Then there's Dawn Staley. She's trending upward.
Ray needs a plan for football and baseball.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Re: Berson still being soccer coach is a JOKE. I give him credit for building
It's okay to question and analyze because I guess that's what people do on message boards. But at times it goes way beyond that on here and gets personal from behind the anonymity of a keyboard...and it goes on relentlessly...endlessly with knee jerk criticism and personal attacks on some of the best people...good coaches...and good men...that we have ever had leading our athletic teams. And that's just not right IMO.
Not necessarily speaking about you Irmo...but a certain part of the fan base that comes to FGF does that. There's a line that is too often crossed and goes beyond questioning and wondering.
True Gamecocks understand our history and where it was and where we are now with many of our athletic programs...and can appreciate the success we have had....understand we have good people in place who have helped us achieve that success...and understand those people will help them achieve that success again if any small minute bit of patience is applied. Then true Gamecocks will enjoy the journey "back to the top" again whenever that occurs.
For what it's worth, I believe we lost midweek games to the Citadel and Francis Marion in a couple of those championship years as well. Chill out guys. It's a long season. Lots of baseball yet to be played. Let's see how it all plays out before we throw the baby out with the bath water.
This post was edited on 3/26 9:24 PM by Garnet Man
Nope... it's okay to wonder out loud...ask questions if you want....but try to keep history in perspective. Understand where we have been before at certain times and then how things have gotten better. In 2010 we lost two out of three to East Carolina and two out of three to Clemson. it is known that Coach Tanner kept apologizing to Coach Holbrook saying "I'm sorry I brought you here for this." Then lo and behold the team caught fire at the end of the year fueled by an incredible inspired spiritual journey led by a sick little boy named Baylor Teal.
It's okay to question and analyze because I guess that's what people do on message boards. But at times it goes way beyond that on here and gets personal from behind the anonymity of a keyboard...and it goes on relentlessly...endlessly with knee jerk criticism and personal attacks on some of the best people...good coaches...and good men...that we have ever had leading our athletic teams. And that's just not right IMO.
Not necessarily speaking about you Irmo...but a certain part of the fan base that comes to FGF does that. There's a line that is too often crossed and goes beyond questioning and wondering.
True Gamecocks understand our history and where it was and where we are now with many of our athletic programs...and can appreciate the success we have had....understand we have good people in place who have helped us achieve that success...and understand those people will help them achieve that success again if any small minute bit of patience is applied. Then true Gamecocks will enjoy the journey "back to the top" again whenever that occurs.
For what it's worth, I believe we lost midweek games to the Citadel and Francis Marion in a couple of those championship years as well. Chill out guys. It's a long season. Lots of baseball yet to be played. Let's see how it all plays out before we throw the baby out with the bath water.
This post was edited on 3/26 9:24 PM by Garnet Man
Lol. Berson should have been let go ten years ago, maybe fifteen. Program has been in a slow decline for many years that most fans don't notice. Same as June Raines days in the baseball program. A slow, painful decline. June should have been cut loose ten years someone had the balls to do it. Facts are facts boys. Don't come back with your sunshine pumping crap!!
Those who keep comparing Tanner's early years to Chad's early years- that is comparing apples to oranges.... Tanner did not inherit a team that had gone to 3 straight championship series.
You don't have to be out of 1st grade math to see the annual decline from title series to super regional loss to home regional loss. It is clearly there- our chance to firmly establish a dynasty in one male sport ended abruptly- Hope the trend doesn't continue.
Was worried when Tanner made the jump to AD... successful championship coaches becoming ADs was a regular and often good move in the 1970s and 1980s but not in the 21st Century. College sports is too much of a business now.
You don't have to be out of 1st grade math to see the annual decline from title series to super regional loss to home regional loss. It is clearly there- our chance to firmly establish a dynasty in one male sport ended abruptly- Hope the trend doesn't continue.
Was worried when Tanner made the jump to AD... successful championship coaches becoming ADs was a regular and often good move in the 1970s and 1980s but not in the 21st Century. College sports is too much of a business now.
Curious thing, though, looking at AFTER Ray had the initial 3 year run to the CWS. Why did he let what he had established slip so much before 2010?? Ray's teams reached the point where they didn't even host a regional..and that's a team that featured 2 future major leaguers & one who reached AAA!! You would rather have a Fortune 500 exec.- a "business person"- lead an Athletic Dept. rather than a man who has actually coached on the collegiate level??
Well you know he had to start from scratch... I mean we had only played for 3 national championships in a row and won 2 of them... Not excited about Holbrook
