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How is the stock market so high?

ToddFlanders

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2007
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Don't get me wrong - I'm enjoying the ride. I've made over a 50% return on my day-trading and because my 401K was heavy in tech stocks, it's up over 10% from it's high before Covid showed up (and we're not even close to the year's high in the market).

This is where my understanding of the stock market ends - I get that it goes up and goes down and have had good luck in picking stocks. But why is it shooting up now with pretty much every other economic indicator showing that this shouldn't be happening?
 
Don't get me wrong - I'm enjoying the ride. I've made over a 50% return on my day-trading and because my 401K was heavy in tech stocks, it's up over 10% from it's high before Covid showed up (and we're not even close to the year's high in the market).

This is where my understanding of the stock market ends - I get that it goes up and goes down and have had good luck in picking stocks. But why is it shooting up now with pretty much every other economic indicator showing that this shouldn't be happening?

No second wave of COVID 19 after seeing protest over the weekend....
 
Don't get me wrong - I'm enjoying the ride. I've made over a 50% return on my day-trading and because my 401K was heavy in tech stocks, it's up over 10% from it's high before Covid showed up (and we're not even close to the year's high in the market).

This is where my understanding of the stock market ends - I get that it goes up and goes down and have had good luck in picking stocks. But why is it shooting up now with pretty much every other economic indicator showing that this shouldn't be happening?
In part because none of the people who really drive the stock market aren’t actually impacted by any of this. Your large players that make the markets shift (Blackstone) are still buying speculative stocks in expectation that when things level they will skyrocket as people over compensate for the lockdowns.
 
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The main reason I asked is because I completely whiffed on today’s jump. 40M unemployed, riots in the streets, Covid number still rising - I was expecting a slight dip this morning if nothing else. So I didn’t buy a stock that I play around expecting it to go a bit lower - and then the damn thing jumps 4% this morning.

I don’t get it. But I’m also not a “large player” in this world.
 
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The main reason I asked is because I completely whiffed on today’s jump. 40M unemployed, riots in the streets, Covid number still rising - I was expecting a slight dip this morning if nothing else. So I didn’t buy a stock that I play around expecting it to go a bit lower - and then the damn thing jumps 4% this morning.

I don’t get it. But I’m also not a “large player” in this world.

It's called light at the end of the tunnel...

George Soros is paying the folks who are unemployed and they went window shopping over the weekend...
 
Got to say I have been surprised how well small cap funds have done through this. Kinda expected them to be hit the worse but they've been my biggest gains.
 
When I think about what makes the market move, for some odd reason, I think of the Field of Dreams speech by Terrance Mann on why "they will come" if it is built. In a nutshell, I think there is little rhyme or reason other than supply and demand, and the demand is "because it's there", and that's what people have been conditioned to do. I get a kick out of listening to news explanations on why the market dropped or why it rose on a particular day.
 
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In part because none of the people who really drive the stock market aren’t actually impacted by any of this. Your large players that make the markets shift (Blackstone) are still buying speculative stocks in expectation that when things level they will skyrocket as people over compensate for the lockdowns.

There are plenty of 'Big Boys" positioned on both sides. Some, who think the bear market is done, and we are in a new bill market. Others who think this is a bear market rally.
 
Don't get me wrong - I'm enjoying the ride. I've made over a 50% return on my day-trading and because my 401K was heavy in tech stocks, it's up over 10% from it's high before Covid showed up (and we're not even close to the year's high in the market).

This is where my understanding of the stock market ends - I get that it goes up and goes down and have had good luck in picking stocks. But why is it shooting up now with pretty much every other economic indicator showing that this shouldn't be happening?

It’s called “Don’t fight the Fed” who is pumping liquidity into the market more than it did in 2008 plus the stimulus packages that Congress has passed. There’s tons of liquidity in the US and abroad and it is coming here to the US. Plus the Congress will probably pass another stimulus package of some sort pretty soon. There is always a bounce in the market ahead of that. I deal with many wealthy family offices and money managers who are sitting on the sidelines with cash. The S&P is trading at over 23 P/E depending on how you measure earnings now. Some say it is over 28 P/E. That is a historical high. If that isn’t a big sell signal, it doesn’t exist. The smart money managers want to short the market and would be short except for the pending stimulus package. Everyone that is reputable is building cash and planning to short the hell out of this market once there is clarity on this package. If you are up, then raise cash. You don’t need to short the market. Cash will be king by fall.
 
Because

1. The Dow Jones includes only 30 mega-corporations. For better or worse, it's like the Top 25 of CFB.
2. Stock buy-backs, where companies buy their own shares back, cause illusory/misleading market gains.
3. Not everything is that high -- you just chose your funds wisely. Fear in certain industries, obviously travel and even REITs, causes $ to flow to whatever is in vogue, like your tech stocks. Stocks on average are still well below the all-time highs.
4. Low interest rate environment. Would you rather earn < 2% in a savings account or own shares that pay a dividend of > 2%?
5. For now, most people who are unemployed are not the ones who invest in the stock market. The converse is that billionaires easily manipulate the markets according to their whims. It's just the truth.
6. "Irrational exuberance"
7. Stocks do well before taxes (yes, I know April 15th is long gone) are due as people try to max out their 401k company match.
8. Lots of other reasons we don't know.

Economics is a crazy beast, no doubt about it.

Don't get me wrong - I'm enjoying the ride. I've made over a 50% return on my day-trading and because my 401K was heavy in tech stocks, it's up over 10% from it's high before Covid showed up (and we're not even close to the year's high in the market).

This is where my understanding of the stock market ends - I get that it goes up and goes down and have had good luck in picking stocks. But why is it shooting up now with pretty much every other economic indicator showing that this shouldn't be happening?
 
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Don't get me wrong - I'm enjoying the ride. I've made over a 50% return on my day-trading and because my 401K was heavy in tech stocks, it's up over 10% from it's high before Covid showed up (and we're not even close to the year's high in the market).

This is where my understanding of the stock market ends - I get that it goes up and goes down and have had good luck in picking stocks. But why is it shooting up now with pretty much every other economic indicator showing that this shouldn't be happening?
Massive monetary and fiscal stimulus.

The market knows there are tons of dry powder on the sidelines.

The economy was put into the equivalent of a medically induced coma.

World economies are re-opening.

Market sentiment remains very negative.

A contrarian indicator, if there ever was one.

This is most disruptive period since the late 19th century.

That period gave us electricity, the telephone & internal combustion.

It will be choppy, but the bottom is in.

Good luck!
 
Don't get me wrong - I'm enjoying the ride. I've made over a 50% return on my day-trading and because my 401K was heavy in tech stocks, it's up over 10% from it's high before Covid showed up (and we're not even close to the year's high in the market).

This is where my understanding of the stock market ends - I get that it goes up and goes down and have had good luck in picking stocks. But why is it shooting up now with pretty much every other economic indicator showing that this shouldn't be happening?

The market prices expectations (future). The market also moves on surprises to the expectations.

So, for example, the Unemployment Report (which comes out every first Friday) is a major mover of the financial markets. It comprises the Unemployment Rate, Hourly Earnings, and Non-farm Payrolls. The rate is a big mover. Suppose, by consensus (forecasters) suggest that the unemployment rate will go down by 0.1% from the prior month, then these forecasts are priced into stock prices and the indexes (go up). However, when the actual report comes out, and if the unemployment rate goes down by 1% (more than the 0.1%) then the market, ceteris paribus, will respond and go up even further.

The key to the story is what future events drive the markets? This is billion $ industry. Getting these forecasts right is a very difficult business. For the interested, the time is immense, and the expertise has to be developed - from doing a Ph.D. to follow-up research. For those who don't have the time, the general advice given by most financial gurus, is to invest in indexes - S&P 500, Russell 3000, or the DJIA, to name a few.

The markets now are very volatile. Any future news that is positive seems to have considerable impact.
 
Don't get me wrong - I'm enjoying the ride. I've made over a 50% return on my day-trading and because my 401K was heavy in tech stocks, it's up over 10% from it's high before Covid showed up (and we're not even close to the year's high in the market).

This is where my understanding of the stock market ends - I get that it goes up and goes down and have had good luck in picking stocks. But why is it shooting up now with pretty much every other economic indicator showing that this shouldn't be happening?

“why is the market up?”
“There are more buyers than sellers”

That is the smartass answer my old boss always used to give me at Ameritrade.

Truth is I am terrified of this market man, I just see a LOT of bankruptcies and problems coming from this lockdown, and now add in that half the cities in the country have been burned and looted... not a good look for upcoming profit reports. But- the markets will probably go up tomorrow on hopes that the president is ending the riots! LOL
 
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“why is the market up?”
“There are more buyers than sellers”

That is the smartass answer my old boss always used to give me at Ameritrade.

Truth is I am terrified of this market man, I just see a LOT of bankruptcies and problems coming from this lockdown, and now add in that half the cities in the country have been burned and looted... not a good look for upcoming profit reports. But- the markets will probably go up tomorrow on hopes that the president is ending the riots! LOL

The President can't end this looting, It starts with the local officials, Police Chiefs, Mayors and Governors... If they can't or WON'T do their jobs, then that's when the President steps in send the military..

I believe this was perfectly planned by the democrats (standing back and do nothing) and other folks like George Soros by paying groups like Antifa and get in with the protest and staring riots... I'm will to be 80% protesters have lost their jobs and when they see an opportunity, they take it...

I think Mayor Benjamin, Sheriff Leon Lott and Chief Skip Holbrook (Not Holbroken) have done a great job here in Columbia and other Mayors, Sheriffs and Chiefs in Greenville, Sumter, Camden, Myrtle Beach and Lexington area have done a great job too... Charleston's Mayor and Police Chiefs have done NOTHING and following the democrat script...

But, getting back to stocks, I would look for stocks to buy and rent... Find a good entry point and get out if you're renting them...

There are a few to own for the long run...
 
The main reason I asked is because I completely whiffed on today’s jump. 40M unemployed, riots in the streets, Covid number still rising - I was expecting a slight dip this morning if nothing else. So I didn’t buy a stock that I play around expecting it to go a bit lower - and then the damn thing jumps 4% this morning.

I don’t get it. But I’m also not a “large player” in this world.
I had just the opposite experience today. I bought a stock Friday, it lost a little on Friday so I held it over the weekend. I look for my stocks to gain 3% daily so I set it for a 6% return on Monday - didn’t happen but it did get back in positive territory for me. Got up this morning and the stock was sitting just below my 6% threshold in pre-market trading so I sold it. Market opened, the same stock then dropped 8%. If I could have bought back in, I could have made 6% on it or more again today. Good day today for the short, day traders. Now, I’ll go look for another jewel in the morning. Be very careful if you play stocks before or after hours - not a conservative approach. And, I have no idea what I am doing - getting better with trial and error. Easy to make money in the market right now because of the collapse in March. When it gets back up to 30,000 - the easy wins will be harder to fine.
 
A lot of this stock talk in the past few posts is downright scary. What the heck are you guys doing?
 
Trillions of dollars of "free money" from the Fed? Not a good fundamental. Watch for skyrocketing inflation in the near future.

Skyrocketing inflation? Not happening. Take it to the bank.
 
LaughingBecause Barrack Obama set the stock market on a path to greatness back in 2008, or so our well meaning liberal gamecocks would claim.
 
LaughingBecause Barrack Obama set the stock market on a path to greatness back in 2008, or so our well meaning liberal gamecocks would claim.

He did. He pulled in the FED printer and made sure that a recession from the 2008 financial debacle would not happen on his watch. Trump has then followed suit.
 
Ha. Let's revisit in 2021/2002 when the Cantillon Effect actually starts to take effect.

OK! Let’s revisit. In 2021? Not a chance!

There are no supply side bottlenecks (and oil prices are low) and demand pressures are down because of the Covid. The argument about printing money? It is an issue, but not in this environment.
 
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OK! Let’s revisit. In 2021? Not a chance!

There are no supply side bottlenecks (and oil prices are low) and demand pressures are down because of the Covid. The argument about printing money? It is an issue, but not in this environment.

Sounds good. We'll do it. :)
 
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Trillions of dollars of "free money" from the Fed? Not a good fundamental. Watch for skyrocketing inflation in the near future.
That's not the fundamental I had in mind. It's easy to predict skyrocketing inflation. It's always out there someplace. It's like predicting a wildfire in California.
 
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Don't get me wrong - I'm enjoying the ride. I've made over a 50% return on my day-trading and because my 401K was heavy in tech stocks, it's up over 10% from it's high before Covid showed up (and we're not even close to the year's high in the market).

This is where my understanding of the stock market ends - I get that it goes up and goes down and have had good luck in picking stocks. But why is it shooting up now with pretty much every other economic indicator showing that this shouldn't be happening?
are you investing in pure tec or bio tec ?
 
It's literally a fake market held up by trillions of money printing by the Fed. They stopped it from totally collapsing in March. There are cheat codes called circuit breakers.

When Venezuela was collapsing the stock market went up. It's totally disconnected from reality with money printing. We are entering the worst depression this country has seen. Everything is being held together by that unemployment right now. When those jobs are gone in August. There is only so much money the Fed can print
 
It's literally a fake market held up by trillions of money printing by the Fed. They stopped it from totally collapsing in March. There are cheat codes called circuit breakers.

When Venezuela was collapsing the stock market went up. It's totally disconnected from reality with money printing. We are entering the worst depression this country has seen. Everything is being held together by that unemployment right now. When those jobs are gone in August. There is only so much money the Fed can print
I'll stop everything while I wait on the inevitable implosion to manifest itself.:rolleyes:
 
I'll stop everything while I wait on the inevitable implosion to manifest itself.:rolleyes:

If history repeats itself, your wait should be in the ballpark of 6-18 months.
--------------------
1/ Central banks are continuing to aggressively inflate the fiat monetary base. Since 2008, the US federal reserve has expanded its balance sheet from .8T to 7.1 Trillion.

2/ This means they have "inflated" that fiat monetary base supply of currency by 21.9% ANNUALLY over that 11 year period of time. Well, then why haven't we seen CPI "inflation"? Easy, because they buy financial assets with that freshly printed money. Bonds are then purchased off the open market and freshly printed cash is supplied into the free and open economy. This money goes straight into the hands of the people holding assets & only a trickle comes down into the lower-income sections of the economy where a majority of the population (% wise) exists. As the wealthy portion of the population continues to benefit from this process of inserting freshly printed cash into the system, their net worth continues to grow & they get first access to allocate the capital to even more advantageous assets that make more money. This is not free and open but rather manipulated. You won't find CPI inflation because the freshly printed money is nesting itself into financial assets by bidding the market capitalization higher and higher.

Deflation Enters the Party:
When an economy's money supply becomes manipulated in an inflationary manner, it incentivizes aggressive investment (see above). This is because if the cash is simply held, it's value will continue to debase over time. But if the fiat is invested, it can potentially outpace the debasement. When years and decades of a deeply manipulated inflationary fiat money expansion has occurred, it actually creates deflationary prices for some goods and services. Remember, the newly printed money is bidding asset prices, this means the gap between wealthy and poor will expand. If a majority of the population can't afford goods and services (because the percentage of poor are becoming larger each day), then the demand for goods and services go down. If demand for goods and services go down, the price must follow it. Now, the opposite is true for goods and services that are absolute essentials to life. {I.e. Healthcare, Food, Education.}

So, we are seeing price deflation of non-essential goods and services. We are seeing price inflation of essential goods and services. We are seeing hyper-like inflation of bonds and stocks due to the government unapologetically manipulating those markets.

Why is the FED doing this? They have to. Right now, the money they are printing and inserting into the system (non-homogeneously) is not getting to the masses. This is why the velocity of money continues to decline in the system.

That's why the government is now doing direct deposits to citizens. It's got the fancy name, universal basic income (UBI). But don't let the name fool you - they are out of options. They MUST get cash into the hands of the citizens or else further civil unrest will continue to spiral out of control. A majority of people don't have enough money to even pay for their basic needs anymore. Long term, UBI has its problems just like Quantitative Easing (asset purchases) has. But make no mistake about it, the engine is out of oil. They have to print, and they have to get the money into the general population where it's needed most.
------------------------

The hedge is with asymmetrical assets such as Gold and BTC.
 
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If history repeats itself, your wait should be in the ballpark of 6-18 months.
--------------------
1/ Central banks are continuing to aggressively inflate the fiat monetary base. Since 2008, the US federal reserve has expanded its balance sheet from .8T to 7.1 Trillion.

2/ This means they have "inflated" that fiat monetary base supply of currency by 21.9% ANNUALLY over that 11 year period of time. Well, then why haven't we seen CPI "inflation"? Easy, because they buy financial assets with that freshly printed money. Bonds are then purchased off the open market and freshly printed cash is supplied into the free and open economy. This money goes straight into the hands of the people holding assets & only a trickle comes down into the lower-income sections of the economy where a majority of the population (% wise) exists. As the wealthy portion of the population continues to benefit from this process of inserting freshly printed cash into the system, their net worth continues to grow & they get first access to allocate the capital to even more advantageous assets that make more money. This is not free and open but rather manipulated. You won't find CPI inflation because the freshly printed money is nesting itself into financial assets by bidding the market capitalization higher and higher.

Deflation Enters the Party:
When an economy's money supply becomes manipulated in an inflationary manner, it incentivizes aggressive investment (see above). This is because if the cash is simply held, it's value will continue to debase over time. But if the fiat is invested, it can potentially outpace the debasement. When years and decades of a deeply manipulated inflationary fiat money expansion has occurred, it actually creates deflationary prices for some goods and services. Remember, the newly printed money is bidding asset prices, this means the gap between wealthy and poor will expand. If a majority of the population can't afford goods and services (because the percentage of poor are becoming larger each day), then the demand for goods and services go down. If demand for goods and services go down, the price must follow it. Now, the opposite is true for goods and services that are absolute essentials to life. {I.e. Healthcare, Food, Education.}

So, we are seeing price deflation of non-essential goods and services. We are seeing price inflation of essential goods and services. We are seeing hyper-like inflation of bonds and stocks due to the government unapologetically manipulating those markets.

Why is the FED doing this? They have to. Right now, the money they are printing and inserting into the system (non-homogeneously) is not getting to the masses. This is why the velocity of money continues to decline in the system.

That's why the government is now doing direct deposits to citizens. It's got the fancy name, universal basic income (UBI). But don't let the name fool you - they are out of options. They MUST get cash into the hands of the citizens or else further civil unrest will continue to spiral out of control. A majority of people don't have enough money to even pay for their basic needs anymore. Long term, UBI has its problems just like Quantitative Easing (asset purchases) has. But make no mistake about it, the engine is out of oil. They have to print, and they have to get the money into the general population where it's needed most.
------------------------

The hedge is with asymmetrical assets such as Gold and BTC.
I know I am oversimplifying my synopsis of that, but there will be a correction - maybe a deep correction. Probably nothing is going to happen which hasn't happened before; it might or might not happen relatively soon; it will be in the way of other cyclical corrections.

A majority of people don't have enough money to even pay for their basic needs anymore.
What's your matrix on that? I consider my milieu rather typical and definitely middle class. The people in my realm are not all flush, but a scant few are on the edge. My only concern - and it doesn't keep me awake at night - is the undifferentiated way in which stimulus money was distributed. Not everyone who received it absolutely needed it. I guess the redeeming side of that is that most of the people who didn't need it knew what to do with money when they got it. Of course, it could also be argued - in hindsight - that we didn't need to shut down this economy in most sectors of the country. But that would engender another argument covering old ground and I need to go to town and spend a little money today.
 
I know I am oversimplifying my synopsis of that, but there will be a correction - maybe a deep correction. Probably nothing is going to happen which hasn't happened before; it might or might not happen relatively soon; it will be in the way of other cyclical corrections.

Honestly, we're in uncharted territory. We should have gone into a difficult, but healthy recession following the 2008 fiasco. However, neither Obama or Trump wanted that on their watch.

Hence, the grand experiment.....A FED which has been artificially printing money to artificially prop up the economy and markets for over 12 years....If any ordinary person did this, they would go to prison for a very long time.

They are also suppressing what the real interest rates are. Hence, we have no idea what the real cost of money actually is at this point.

In terms of simply the C19 monetary dance, the Bank of England recently released a report stating that they are anticipating the worst financial crisis in 300 years. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-300-years-as-coronavirus-bites-idUSKBN22I3BV

We're in a very similar boat. Maybe the advancement of new technology {AI, Ethereum (Bankless), etc} will assist in blunting some of the damage. Only time will tell....IMO, diversification into asymmetrical assets (5%+) is a quality hedge.

What's your matrix on that? I consider my milieu rather typical and definitely middle class. The people in my realm are not all flush, but a scant few are on the edge. My only concern - and it doesn't keep me awake at night - is the undifferentiated way in which stimulus money was distributed. Not everyone who received it absolutely needed it. I guess the redeeming side of that is that most of the people who didn't need it knew what to do with money when they got it. Of course, it could also be argued - in hindsight - that we didn't need to shut down this economy in most sectors of the country. But that would engender another argument covering old ground and I need to go to town and spend a little money today.

The people who have been ALL CASH, which is the majority of low/middle-income class, are getting hammered by this policy each and every year as the dollar has been debased.

This is likely the tail-end of fiat currency and possibly the dollar standard. There are heavy discussions to digitize the dollar. China is already ahead of us w/ the digital yuan. However, unless you have scarcity and/or it pegged to something (like gold which Nixon abandoned in 1971) there still exists the ability to create an infinite supply.
 
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