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This is one reason I will never vote for the nutty left. Washington State came within one vote of

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I use to believe that until I realized the republican approach was no different and was all talk.
I know where you are at. I used to feel the same way and considered myself an independent for that very reason. But that was before the Dem's race to the left and the sore loser mentality they have displayed past couple of years.
 
You are correct...we are not likely to change one another's minds. With that said, support of abortion rights and homosexuality/same sex marriage is the opposite of explicit Biblical teaching. Despite what a human named Tripp Fuller may teach, it is not possible for a Christian can support either issue. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in all Christians does not permit it.

And a small side note, there is no delineation between a 'good' or 'bad' Christian. All humans are sinners. Christians have received God's grace and mercy purchased with the blood of Jesus. That eliminates any demarcation between good or bad Christians.

I never said I 'followed' the teachings of the guy I mentioned. Only that he does a good job of articulating a Liberal Christian lifestyle.
 
I am a Christian actually. But we do have separation of Church and State for a reason. Governments are designed to be impartial (which is borderline impossible, I know) to religious bias when making decisions so I try to do the same. Call me a bad Christian if you choose.

As for free food, millions of Americans receive food stamps already. There are also tons of abandoned vacant buildings that I would like to see turned in to shelters to help alleviate the homeless problems. But as with most internet discussions (or arguments) I don't expect to change your mind and I doubt you'll change mine. I just want people to have a better understand as to why people feel and vote how they do. It all comes down to individual life experiences which by nature we can't share.

If you are curious as to how a modern Christian can have more progressive beliefs I recommend the podcast Homebrewed Christianity. Tripp Fuller (Ph.D in Philosophy, Religion, and Theology and professing Christian and Pastor) does a great job articulating his points in ways I never could.

https://trippfuller.com/
jesus was progressive, but i doubt he would want people standing in lines looking for handouts when that “option” is much easier than going to work, hard to say that given the current circumstances, but in general. i was on unemployment in 2009 after being laid off after the recession. we thought we made it but bad debts ran it’s course. it was embarrassing but i had to do it. when i was on unemployment, i used that for tuition and rent. not new tv’s and upgrades to my cars exhaust. it’s their for all of us who each pay for it. don’t get me wrong. i’m not looking down my nose at people who have to use unemployment benefits when it’s been paid for and it’s the only option. that’s why it there. my point is all these extra programs being tossed around that kinda bother me. i get close to 40% of my check cleaned as it is. i don’t want to be forced to pay for something i’ll never be qualified to receive because it was easier for those who reap the benefits to do so rather than work.
 
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jesus was progressive, but i doubt he would want people standing in lines looking for handouts when that “option” is much easier than going to work, hard to say that given the current circumstances, but in general. i was on unemployment in 2009 after being laid off after the recession. we thought we made it but bad debts ran it’s course. it was embarrassing but i had to do it. when i was on unemployment, i used that for tuition and rent. not new tv’s and upgrades to my cars exhaust. it’s their for all of us who each pay for it. don’t get me wrong. i’m not looking down my nose at people who have to use unemployment benefits when it’s been paid for and it’s the only option. that’s why it there. my point is all these extra programs being tossed around that kinda bother me. i get close to 40% of my check cleaned as it is. i don’t want to be forced to pay for something i’ll never be qualified to receive because it was easier for those who reap the benefits to do so rather than work.

How often do you use the Fire Department or the local library? You pay for things all the time you don't use frequently. It's the greater good mentality behind social programs. They are there for others when they need it, and they are there for you if you need it. If you never do, be thankful and be happy to continue to help those that do
 
Well, it’s more complicated than that.

Many times even the victim families don’t want the death penalty

Let's get this straight- it's sometimes the victims families don't want the death penalty- sometimes not most of the time. I am going to bet you don't believe in the death penalty.

But regardless it should not matter what the victim's families want or don't want- Law should prevail.
 
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How often do you use the Fire Department or the local library? You pay for things all the time you don't use frequently. It's the greater good mentality behind social programs. They are there for others when they need it, and they are there for you if you need it. If you never do, be thankful and be happy to continue to help those that do

That's not exactly a fair comparison of what "be cocky" was talking about.
 
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How often do you use the Fire Department or the local library? You pay for things all the time you don't use frequently. It's the greater good mentality behind social programs. They are there for others when they need it, and they are there for you if you need it. If you never do, be thankful and be happy to continue to help those that do
i’m fully aware that we are indeed a quasi socialist capitalist republic. fully aware. but a line has to be drawn somewhere. fragile and delicate treading is necessary to sustain what this country is all about. especially now that even more nationalities are being included into the more powerful positions than ever before in regards to our checkered past. keeping people safe, informed and educated with opportunities to further themselves in life are important, paying a guy to get shithoused and kick his kids teeth in are another thing. that’s been increasing in the past two months.
 
I know where you are at. I used to feel the same way and considered myself an independent for that very reason. But that was before the Dem's race to the left and the sore loser mentality they have displayed past couple of years.

Speaking of being sore losers, the Dems before the election of 2016 were talking big to the Republicans about not being sore losers when Trump lose the election. However, when Trump won the election "the be nice and not act like sore losers" when out the window.
 
Speaking of being sore losers, the Dems before the election of 2016 were talking big to the Republicans about not being sore losers when Trump lose the election. However, when Trump won the election "the be nice and not act like sore losers" when out the window.
I know right? It's like they keep warning the other side not to become them.
 
That's not exactly a fair comparison of what "be cocky" was talking about.

Fair enough. But the idea that you don't want to pay for anything that does not directly benefit you is just not possible. Large parts of our society are built on that. I'll never get to golf in the same way Presidents do (Obama & Trump) but my tax dollars still go to that. I'd rather that money not go to luxury outings I'll more than likely never experience ( and I'm good with that-I prefer a more simple life). I'd rather my money go to other social programs that help those that need it in the immediate future. We don't get to pick and choose where our tax dollars go but we can choose leaders that we believe will use it more responsibly and beneficially than others.
 
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Let's get this straight- it's sometimes the victims families don't want the death penalty- sometimes not most of the time. I am going to bet you don't believe in the death penalty.

But regardless it should not matter what the victim's families want or don't want- Law should prevail.


1) I support the death penalty in some specific cases.

2) yes, it should matter what the families want and every jurisdiction takes their opinions into account in various degrees.

3) the law is followed. The law allows for different punishments. Judges and juries aren’t breaking the law if they choose life in prison over the death penalty.
 
1) I support the death penalty in some specific cases.

2) yes, it should matter what the families want and every jurisdiction takes their opinions into account in various degrees.

3) the law is followed. The law allows for different punishments. Judges and juries aren’t breaking the law if they choose life in prison over the death penalty.

But after killing 49 women or even one person there is no justice except the death penalty.
 
Sure thing, and then let some liberal release him for killing 49 women. Sure thing, it's so much cheaper. Is that how you liberals value the lives of 49 innocent women?


Your straw men arguments are silly.

Take your medicine. No one is letting him out.

Plus death penalty cases can take 10 to 20 + years so he could still be let out if that’s your concern- which is a ridiculous concern but you seem to have it.
 
But after killing 49 women or even one person there is no justice except the death penalty.


That’s just opinion. Nothing more.

To someone else, it’s the easy way out.


as Eric Rudolph’s sister in law said, the death penalty would have been too easy on him. The worst thing in the world for Eric is sitting in a small cell for 50 years.

now I don’t care either way. But “justice” in that respect is a relative term.
 
Your straw men arguments are silly.

Take your medicine. No one is letting him out.

Plus death penalty cases can take 10 to 20 + years so he could still be let out if that’s your concern- which is a ridiculous concern but you seem to have it.

Well I don't take medicine, at least on a routine basis. But, he came within one vote of being released.
 
I'll give you some insight as to why I vote Liberal (overall)...

-I believe people should be able to marry who they want
-I believe people (women) should get the right to choose what they do to their bodies
-I believe that people should have access to healthcare

In my view, this is called basic human decency. Live and let live. You can provide examples like you did above all day as to why democrats are evil, and I'm sure I could find similar misgivings by republicans. But overall, Democrats are more willing to just let people be and live their lives and offer people the opportunity to live their best life.

There is so much confusion in your statements. You say that abortion is ok yet you go on to say “live and let live” and “ offer people the best opportunity to live their best life”. You are not allowing for this if you take their life as it is just beginning.

You believe that people should be able to marry whomever they want. For centuries the foundation of marriage was a vow before God and a husband and a wife. Why not create something different than marriage if one is choosing a lifestyle that is contrary to what a marriage actually means. I don’t hate the persons but don’t impose what you want as values on what mine are. Create something new. Even the taking of the rainbow as a symbol of ones gayness is mocking what it truly is. A promise from God to His people.

As for socialized medicine, someone always is paying for someone else. My thought is if you (or your family) doesn’t ’contribute then you should not depend on me and my family. I am a 3 time cancer survivor. I have had private health insurance and Obamacare. I was fortunate enough to be able to get private insurance again. I still owe from the Obamacare years. So much for better insurance and don’t get me started on the changes in doctors! Socialistic medicine has not effectively worked anywhere. People die waiting to see specialist. This is not “Democrats being more willing to let people be.” If that statement was true, why was there a government mandate to pay?
 
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Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life
 
I am also a Christian. I teach Sunday School to middle schoolers.

I am against abortion, but I’m also against the government being involved in the choice between a woman and her doctor. That said, I am not for late stage abortions (which are extremely rare) except in rare cases (life and health of mother).

one thing I have come to be convinced of: we will always have abortion. We always have had abortion. Women of means will simply be able to pay for what they want, poor women won’t. That doesn’t mean poor women won’t have an abortion, they’ll just have the most unsafe ones. If making things illegal stopped them from occurring, we’d have solved a lot of issues.

I’m also convinced abortion never will be illegal. It will be harder in some states, but as stated before, that will just make it harder and more dangerous for poor women. Women of means will be able to travel as necessary for the abortion. It may take a few more days, but it obviously won’t stop it.

As a Christian, If asked, I would always counsel the woman to avoid abortion. I’d pray, plead, help, beg, and forgive. But I wouldn’t make it illegal.
My issue is that rich or poor couples know the behavior they engage in may result in a human life being made so take the steps to prevent it. In the debate, who speaks for the unborn person ? Oh, it's the woman's body so she has a choice to make with her physician. It's responsibility that is the problem, I chose to engage in the behavior the consequence is a new life, fine don't want the child ? Give it up for adoption, lots of couples that would love to raise a child. I agree don't make it illegal but restrict the heck out of it because it is being used as birth control which is wrong IMO.
 
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I'll give you some insight as to why I vote Liberal (overall)...

-I believe people should be able to marry who they want
-I believe people (women) should get the right to choose what they do to their bodies
-I believe that people should have access to healthcare

In my view, this is called basic human decency. Live and let live. You can provide examples like you did above all day as to why democrats are evil, and I'm sure I could find similar misgivings by republicans. But overall, Democrats are more willing to just let people be and live their lives and offer people the opportunity to live their best life.
Does a female fetus have the right to do what she wants with her body?
 
There is so much confusion in your statements. You say that abortion is ok yet you go on to say “live and let live” and “ offer people the best opportunity to live their best life”. You are not allowing for this if you take their life as it is just beginning.

You believe that people should be able to marry whomever they want. For centuries the foundation of marriage was a vow before God and a husband and a wife. Why not create something different than marriage if one is choosing a lifestyle that is contrary to what a marriage actually means. I don’t hate the persons but don’t impose what you want as values on what mine are. Create something new. Even the taking of the rainbow as a symbol of ones gayness is mocking what it truly is. A promise from God to His people.

As for socialized medicine, someone always is paying for someone else. My thought is if you (or your family) doesn’t ’contribute then you should not depend on me and my family. I am a 3 time cancer survivor. I have had private health insurance and Obamacare. I was fortunate enough to be able to get private insurance again. I still owe from the Obamacare years. So much for better insurance and don’t get me started on the changes in doctors! Socialistic medicine has not effectively worked anywhere. People die waiting to see specialist. This is not “Democrats being more willing to let people be.” If that statement was true, why was there a government mandate to pay?
Well said... Very good insight from a person with experience
 
That’s just opinion. Nothing more.

To someone else, it’s the easy way out.


as Eric Rudolph’s sister in law said, the death penalty would have been too easy on him. The worst thing in the world for Eric is sitting in a small cell for 50 years.

now I don’t care either way. But “justice” in that respect is a relative term.
Sure thing if some liberal doesn't let him out of prison.
 
My issue is that rich or poor couples know the behavior they engage in may result in a human life being made so take the steps to prevent it. In the debate, who speaks for the unborn person ? Oh, it's the woman's body so she has a choice to make with her physician. It's responsibility that is the problem, I chose to engage in the behavior the consequence is a new life, fine don't want the child ? Give it up for adoption, lots of couples that would love to raise a child. I agree don't make it illegal but restrict the heck out of it because it is being used as birth control which is wrong IMO.


I agree with you overall. But I don’t think government is the answer or will solve it.

It’s an issue for the mother and her doctor.
 
You are correct...we are not likely to change one another's minds. With that said, support of abortion rights and homosexuality/same sex marriage is the opposite of explicit Biblical teaching. Despite what a human named Tripp Fuller may teach, it is not possible for a Christian can support either issue. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in all Christians does not permit it.

And a small side note, there is no delineation between a 'good' or 'bad' Christian. All humans are sinners. Christians have received God's grace and mercy purchased with the blood of Jesus. That eliminates any demarcation between good or bad Christians.

What I don’t understand is why so many of my Christian brethren get their back up so much over homosexuals which is only vaguely referred to in several verses of the Bible while voting for a serial adulterer who pays off porn stars which is violation of one of the 10 Commandments. If God was so against the homosexual, why didn’t he add a commandment for it. Or at least be clear in the scripture about it. What is clear in the scripture is that we should love one another. Full stop. Homosexuality has been around forever and hasn’t always been demonized the way it was in the past couple centuries. Somehow homosexuality has surpassed adultery, gluttony, lying and every other thing that God has been absolutely clear about. Love your neighbor. I am so sorry to see so many Christians preach a gospel of hate and not the gospel of love that was taught to me all my life.
 
What I don’t understand is why so many of my Christian brethren get their back up so much over homosexuals which is only vaguely referred to in several verses of the Bible while voting for a serial adulterer who pays off porn stars which is violation of one of the 10 Commandments. If God was so against the homosexual, why didn’t he add a commandment for it. Or at least be clear in the scripture about it. What is clear in the scripture is that we should love one another. Full stop. Homosexuality has been around forever and hasn’t always been demonized the way it was in the past couple centuries. Somehow homosexuality has surpassed adultery, gluttony, lying and every other thing that God has been absolutely clear about. Love your neighbor. I am so sorry to see so many Christians preach a gospel of hate and not the gospel of love that was taught to me all my life.
I'm guessing you did not vote for Trump. I wouldn't use serial adulterer as an argument, slick willie says hello. Also, Christians do not preach hate, that is what the left tries to use as an excuse to condone behavior that some see as wrong and they don't want to be called on it. Christians are told to be tolerant but the left does not feel they have to be. I do not agree with alternative lifestyles but, its a choice just like living together not being married is. You want to engage in certain behaviors ? fine, but don't bash people that disagree with it and say its hate because they voice their opinion contrary to what some think. It's a two way street.
 
The "free stuff" rhetoric sure has convinced people that that is the reason our country is in debt. Nobody mentions social security or the size of our military or the stupid neverending wars.

People pay for social security in their paychecks. That's not "free" when you have paid for it all our lives. Wars are debatable, but we are the world superpower because of our military. It's one of the things the Constitution required the Federal Government do. Things like healthcare and social security are NOT. Being the world's economic superpower and the world's military superpower isn't a coincidence. They go hand in hand.

We have bailouts and corporate tax cuts that could add to the tax base as well.

Corporations don't pay taxes. All they do is pass it on to customers. Just a liberal talking point. Raise taxes on corporations and they raise their prices and you pay. If they can't raise prices anymore due to the market, they ship jobs overseas to lower overhead. Either way, bad for us. Corporate and small business taxes should be ZERO.

Also, our cities are planned poorly making them bankrupt.

The bigger a city gets, in general, the more liberals it ends up being. Almost all the dense urban areas vote Democrat. So, if you are complaining about bankruptcy and poor planning, that should tell you something. Major cities are almost all runs by Democrats and are drowning in crime, debt, and mismanagement.

Do some people expect the government to finance their lifestyle? Sure. But that is a stupid talking point created to make people think the "other side" is lazy.

Yes, it is lazy for any able-bodied person to expect someone else to finance their lifestyle and take care of them. Lazy and entitled. That money from "the government" comes from the taxes paid by hard working Americana trying to take care of their own family. Last thing most of them need is to "finance the lifestyle" of someone else. Screw them and their "lifestyle". If they want a "lifestyle", get their ass to work and pay for it.

Acknowledging that healthcare is too expensive, there should be certain safety nets for families, and there should be an attempt to make opportunity available to everyone does not seem unreasonable.

There is. Nobody is dying in the streets.

You know what taxes do pay for? Sometimes great things. Most left-leaning people I know do not expect anything to be free.

Most left-leaning people I know expect most things to be "free". None of them understand the definition of "free". Most have a very superficial understanding of what they are even endorsing. Just going with what they are told because it feels "free".

I had to break the bad news to a liberal friend the other day that Medicare for All wasn't "free". They didn't even understand that you have a monthly payment for medicare. But it sounded good when Bernie said it. They were shocked to realize they would have another monthly payment and that their work coverage would go away. Suddenly, free wasn't so free anymore.

However, "freedom" has not worked for all people. I don't think there is another country in the world that provides a better opportunity to be successful. Innovative, motivated, creative people can hit it big. But there has never been a greater gap between the rich and the poor in this country, and it's not because people are lazy. If advocating for "quality of life" makes me a socialist, then whatever. No offense, but the "freedom" states don't do much well for the general population.

There is no excuse anymore. Libs don't want equality of opportunity. They want equality of results, regardless of the work or effort put into it. If someone has more than me, that's not fair. I should have it too. That's not the way the world works. You can advocate for "quality of life" all you want, but that's not what Dems and libs want. They want to be remain a child their entire life and have hard working adults pay for them through "the government". They want to shed all personal responsibility and hand their existence off to bureaucrats that they expect to create fairness.

That's why Bernie was so popular. Free everything, even for illegals. But he lost because the politicians knew they would lose too many independents and the few moderate Democrats, because many of them understand that somebody else ends up paying for "free", and most realize that the price tags were going to be so big, that it was going to be them. He might have had a chance if Pocahontas had dropped out before Super Tuesday, but the power that be in the Democratic party made sure she stayed in to get Joe the win.
 
What I don’t understand is why so many of my Christian brethren get their back up so much over homosexuals which is only vaguely referred to in several verses of the Bible while voting for a serial adulterer who pays off porn stars which is violation of one of the 10 Commandments. If God was so against the homosexual, why didn’t he add a commandment for it. Or at least be clear in the scripture about it. What is clear in the scripture is that we should love one another. Full stop. Homosexuality has been around forever and hasn’t always been demonized the way it was in the past couple centuries. Somehow homosexuality has surpassed adultery, gluttony, lying and every other thing that God has been absolutely clear about. Love your neighbor. I am so sorry to see so many Christians preach a gospel of hate and not the gospel of love that was taught to me all my life.


One word: Hypocrisy
 
I'm guessing you did not vote for Trump. I wouldn't use serial adulterer as an argument, slick willie says hello. Also, Christians do not preach hate, that is what the left tries to use as an excuse to condone behavior that some see as wrong and they don't want to be called on it. Christians are told to be tolerant but the left does not feel they have to be. I do not agree with alternative lifestyles but, its a choice just like living together not being married is. You want to engage in certain behaviors ? fine, but don't bash people that disagree with it and say its hate because they voice their opinion contrary to what some think. It's a two way street.


I didn’t vote for Bill Clinton because of his lack of personal character. in fact, that’s what many conservatives were saying was the principled position in the 1990s. Many of the same people saying that then, changed their mind and supported trump. It was a miracle I guess.


I didn’t vote for Trump for the same reason.
 
What I don’t understand is why so many of my Christian brethren get their back up so much over homosexuals which is only vaguely referred to in several verses of the Bible while voting for a serial adulterer who pays off porn stars which is violation of one of the 10 Commandments. If God was so against the homosexual, why didn’t he add a commandment for it. Or at least be clear in the scripture about it. What is clear in the scripture is that we should love one another. Full stop. Homosexuality has been around forever and hasn’t always been demonized the way it was in the past couple centuries. Somehow homosexuality has surpassed adultery, gluttony, lying and every other thing that God has been absolutely clear about. Love your neighbor. I am so sorry to see so many Christians preach a gospel of hate and not the gospel of love that was taught to me all my life.

Most Christians I know have gay friends and some even gays in their family and love them anyway.

But that's not what it is about. It's not about "love your neighbor". It's about Christians completely rebuking their religious beliefs and agreeing that, not only doesn't someone have the right to live that lifestyle, but that it is morally right and the same as the union of a man and a woman. Nature doesn't even believe that. And, yes, homosexuality happens across nature, but it is considered a deviation from normal, something the PC police can't handle.

And it's really only an issue for Christians. The same standards aren't applied to muslims, where in other parts of the world they throw gays off the buildings in the name of islam. No love there.
 
I didn’t vote for Bill Clinton because of his lack of personal character. in fact, that’s what many conservatives were saying was the principled position in the 1990s. Many of the same people saying that then, changed their mind and supported trump. It was a miracle I guess.


I didn’t vote for Trump for the same reason.

Yet you're voting for Biden, a mentally addled, lying, racist, sexual predator.
 
Most Christians I know have gay friends and some even gays in their family and love them anyway.

But that's not what it is about. It's not about "love your neighbor". It's about Christians completely rebuking their religious beliefs and agreeing that, not only doesn't someone have the right to live that lifestyle, but that it is morally right and the same as the union of a man and a woman. Nature doesn't even believe that. And, yes, homosexuality happens across nature, but it is considered a deviation from normal, something the PC police can't handle.

And it's really only an issue for Christians. The same standards aren't applied to muslims, where in other parts of the world they throw gays off the buildings in the name of islam. No love there.

It's racist and islamaphobic to criticize muslims for any type of unsavory behavior.
 
I didn’t vote for Bill Clinton because of his lack of personal character. in fact, that’s what many conservatives were saying was the principled position in the 1990s. Many of the same people saying that then, changed their mind and supported trump. It was a miracle I guess.


I didn’t vote for Trump for the same reason.
I understand your position but please don't compare Trump to Bill Clinton, no, Trump is not perfect but there is only one perfect person that ever lived. I guess you will sit out a lot of presidential elections because all of them will have a flaw. You have to vote for the candidate that aligns with your positions and depending on their "flaw" make an informed decision. Crooked Hillary ? Biden ? Sanders? I mean really, those are folks that need to be President of the Greatest Country on earth ? I'm sorry but no. Trump may have his faults but if I honestly felt like he was in the arena of the Clintons I would have sat 2016 out.
 
Yet you're voting for Biden, a mentally addled, lying, racist, sexual predator.


I’ll likely vote for Biden. No final decision until later. Only for sure decision is no vote for trump.

Mentally, it’s a wash between him and Trump. I see no issue there. Both say odd things. Both say goofy things. Both seem Very confused at times.

Lying? Politicians lie from what I understand. Trump lies a lot too. So that’s a wash.


sexual predator? Even if true (and I have doubts) that still makes one assault accusation compared to 20 something for Trump, plus his admission of trying to bed married women and grab women’s private parts.

So the advantage clearly goes to Biden there.
 
I’ll likely vote for Biden. No final decision until later. Only for sure decision is no vote for trump.

Mentally, it’s a wash between him and Trump. I see no issue there. Both say odd things. Both say goofy things. Both seem Very confused at times.

Lying? Politicians lie from what I understand. Trump lies a lot too. So that’s a wash.


sexual predator? Even if true (and I have doubts) that still makes one assault accusation compared to 20 something for Trump, plus his admission of trying to bed married women and grab women’s private parts.

So the advantage clearly goes to Biden there.

But Biden and Trump won't be the only two candidates.
 
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