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What do you do? Navy removes captain of aircraft carrier who sounded alarm about coronavirus

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Rollerdude123

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Apr 8, 2011
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I don’t know all the facts here but I did wonder....

What if you had a situation like this and the Captain couldn’t get his superiors to help or do anything. I’m NOT SAYING that happened here because I don’t know. I’m proposing a “what if”

do you just risk your career and make it public? It’s a twist on the Humphrey Bogart movie The Caine Mutiny

https://apple.news/AdNwbSBlrSgO_8JTJjul7mA
 
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Has nothing to do with Trump. It’s a serious question.

what if you have a situation, doesn’t have to be virus related, where a captain of an aircraft carrier had a serious issue and superiors would not help,or take it seriously? What is the right answer?

I suspect at some point you have to sacrifice your career.
 
Bubbaglide said:
Let’s see . 100 sailors out of 5000 tested positive and he Goes public to the media. Is this really the guy you want in charge? My Dad was a Marine DI. You don’t show up your superior. You make your concern known to your boss and follow orders.
Click to expand...


But in my example, your superiors don’t do anything. They ignore it. What do you do when you have sailors panicking on a ship over their health?
 
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Rollerdude123 said:
But in my example, your superiors don’t do anything. They ignore it. What do you do when you have sailors panicking on a ship over their health?
Click to expand...

You handle it. I doubt the sailors were flipping out. Most that age think they are indestructible. Oh yeah, except for the snowflakes. They probably had hurt feelings. If you want to see what following orders is go watch A Few Good Men. Lance Corporal Dawson
 
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Rollerdude123 said:
But in my example, your superiors don’t do anything. They ignore it. What do you do when you have sailors panicking on a ship over their health?
Click to expand...
So, are we discussing a hypothetical situation or the story you linked in your post? There's no indication from the article that the captain had conveyed the situation to his superiors, that they had failed to do anything about it, whether or not they conveyed to him a plan, or who, exactly, leaked the letter to the SF Chronicle. We don't know enough about what happened here to make a conclusion.

As for your hypothetical, I don't know what I'd do, but I know if you are the captain of a freaking aircraft carrier, you aren't a novice leader. He would know who he needs to contact within the Navy to get what he wants/needs. I can't think of any circumstance that would lead me to leak information to a newspaper.
 
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uscg1984 said:
So, are we discussing a hypothetical situation or the story you linked in your post? There's no indication from the article that the captain had conveyed the situation to his superiors, that they had failed to do anything about it, whether or not they conveyed to him a plan, or who, exactly, leaked the letter to the SF Chronicle. We don't know enough about what happened here to make a conclusion.

As for your hypothetical, I don't know what I'd do, but I know if you are the captain of a freaking aircraft carrier, you aren't a novice leader. He would know who he needs to contact within the Navy to get what he wants/needs. I can't think of any circumstance that would lead me to leak information to a newspaper.
Click to expand...


Even his superiors aren’t sure he leaked it- yet. But the facts of that will come out.

But it got me to thinking what would a captain do if a serious situation developed and his superiors would not act to help diffuse it.
 
Rollerdude123 said:
I don’t know all the facts here but I did wonder....

What if you had a situation like this and the Captain couldn’t get his superiors to help or do anything. I’m NOT SAYING that happened here because I don’t know. I’m proposing a “what if”

do you just risk your career and make it public? It’s a twist on the Humphrey Bogart movie The Caine Mutiny

https://apple.news/AdNwbSBlrSgO_8JTJjul7mA
Click to expand...

You follow orders and don't leak memo's to the Fake news and don't whine like Rollerdude123 and create a panic on the ship and making the crew's family upset...
 
Rollerdude123 said:
I don’t know all the facts here but I did wonder....

What if you had a situation like this and the Captain couldn’t get his superiors to help or do anything. I’m NOT SAYING that happened here because I don’t know. I’m proposing a “what if”

do you just risk your career and make it public? It’s a twist on the Humphrey Bogart movie The Caine Mutiny

https://apple.news/AdNwbSBlrSgO_8JTJjul7mA
Click to expand...

My opinion is just one...and it's an opinion...that said, I'm a veteran and during my time in the military, I learned the only time you escalate above your superior is when given an unlawful order. Period.

That noted, you never, ever betray the confidence of the military by going outside (he sent an email outside of his chain of command, and outside the Navy) unless you've exhausted all options within your chain of command. At that point, you would escalate to the next person in the chain of command: The Secretary of Defense.

This commander exhibited extremely poor judgment and should be relieved.
 
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Tough situation, IMHO he chose the health of his ship. As stated, we do not know all the details but I wonder if they were treating him like they have the cruise ships?
 
heelzfor2 said:
I wonder if they were treating him like they have the cruise ships?
Click to expand...

Are you dumb or just plain stupid.....

This is the Navy and they have dealt with this in the past...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19952884

Novel influenza A (H1N1) outbreak on board a US navy vessel.
Dill CE1, Favata MA.
Author information
Abstract
BACKGROUND AND METHODS:
Fleet Week New York 2009 was the latest installment of an annual celebration to honor US service personnel. It takes place during Memorial Day and this year's celebration coincided with the peak of novel influenza A (H1N1) virus (S-OIV) activity in New York City. Four service members from the USS Iwo Jima and USS Roosevelt contracted influenza while in New York City and were hospitalized in the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)-New York Harbor Healthcare System to minimize the risk of widespread outbreak on board the naval vessels. No additional cases were identified on the USS Roosevelt. However, 135 service personnel on the USS Iwo Jima contracted influenza.

RESULTS:
Shipwide infection control measures including strict isolation and active case finding were instituted immediately with affected crew members and medical staff receiving oseltamivir. The new case rates remained high for 14 days, but the USS Iwo Jima was able to continue deployment. The secondary infectivity rate was 12.0%. The absolute end of the outbreak correlated with arrival at home port and the ability to move patients off board.

CONCLUSIONS:
This outbreak not only reinforces the risk for rapid spread of novel strains of influenza A in confined populations but also demonstrates useful strategies to mitigate the severity of an outbreak, including isolation, infection control measures, and off board sick leave when feasible.


https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...-navy-vessel/BE095448A29C5CCACD68D25E1A7C2C0C

Novel Influenza A (H1N1) Outbreak On Board a US Navy Vessel

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/navy-ships-under-swine-flu-quarantine/

Navy Ships Under Swine Flu Quarantine

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/200...searchers-helped-spot-swine-flu-united-states

Behind the Scenes: Navy Researchers Helped Spot Swine Flu in the United States
 
heelzfor2 said:
Tough situation, IMHO he chose the health of his ship. As stated, we do not know all the details but I wonder if they were treating him like they have the cruise ships?
Click to expand...


I read an article last night that indicated he had sent an email to his commanders about the dire situation on board and they had ignored his request.

It seems that in such a situation, ignoring the captain of a ship at sea would be the worst possible thing for superiors to do. Heck, I’d expect them to relieve him before just ignoring a developing health situation that was getting out of control.

I also wonder what his sailors think of him. One was quoted as saying “The letter worked” as immediately after it was published, superiors started making arrangements to get sailors off the ship in Guam. I’m just wondering if he had notified them and they had ignored the situation to cover themselves. We will find out soon enough when we hear his side and from sailors aboard the ship.

but take this issue out of the scenario. What if a dangerous situation is being ignored by superiors? The Captain needs help and guidance and no one above will help.

The Caine Mutiny, while a movie, presents such a scenario. The Captain is clearly nuts, and the entire leadership of the ship agrees he’s totally incapable of leading the ship. What if they notify their superiors and are ignored?
 
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Saw a video this morning of his exit from the ship and hundreds of sailors had gathered to salute him as he left. Of course they were ignoring the social distancing to do so.

Come on 3rd base, before you call me stupid can we at least get some more facts before forming our opinion of what happened?
 
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heelzfor2 said:
Saw a video this morning of his exit from the ship and hundreds of sailors had gathered to salute him as he left. Of course they were ignoring the social distancing to do so.

Come on 3rd base, before you call me stupid can we at least get some more facts before forming our opinion of what happened?
Click to expand...


Saw it.

 
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Nice link Roller, guy at the end called him the GOAT, man for his people. Gave me chills. Below is another posted.


@zferguson16

Captain Crozier departs USS Theodore Roosevelt, for the last time. 2000 of the crew gather chanting his name out of respect of him giving his all for us just for him to get burned by our chain of command. This is the real navy.


https://twitter.com/zferguson16
 
This one seems clear cut. The facts as I see them.
He was the Captain of a nuclear aircraft carrier who:
1) Went outside the chain of command. It is there for a reason and is not optional. Extremely dangerous precedent
2) Used unsecured email to transmit highly confidential information
3) Openly disclosed to potential enemies a vulnerability in the fight readiness of the vessel under his command
4) Knowingly put his superiors in a position where they had absolutely no choice but to remove him from command

This smells like a political stunt and very self aggrandizing.
 
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As a sailor who served on aircraft carriers, I'll tell you that they take secrecy very seriously. I had a secret clearance to work on my system, which was a communications and radar system for aircraft. That this captain did this for his people is admirable, but from a security point of view also foolish and dangerous. I'm sure an attack on a compromised carrier would have disrupted those sailors far more than the panic virus would have.
 
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As someone earlier stated you never go outside the chain of command unless its an unlawful order,which seemingly this was not the case.
 
Rollerdude123 said:
But in my example, your superiors don’t do anything. They ignore it. What do you do when you have sailors panicking on a ship over their health?
Click to expand...
The chain of command in the military exist for a reason. There are many orders that are given that you may not agree with but you follow orders for the greater good. The last thing you do in the military is skip your superiors and go to the press.
 
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heelzfor2 said:
Saw a video this morning of his exit from the ship and hundreds of sailors had gathered to salute him as he left. Of course they were ignoring the social distancing to do so.

Come on 3rd base, before you call me stupid can we at least get some more facts before forming our opinion of what happened?
Click to expand...

Exactly...the news showed the sailors watching him leave the carrier. They were cheering him and chanting his name! He was looking out for his sailors. Let those who dismissed him take the heat when and if any of the positive testing sailors die from lack of attention.
 
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nikolas22 said:
Exactly...the news showed the sailors watching him leave the carrier. They were cheering him and chanting his name! He was looking out for his sailors. Let those who dismissed him take the heat when and if any of the positive testing sailors die from lack of attention.
Click to expand...
No, As a Captain he should know better, he should have kept it in the chain.
 
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paladin181 said:
As a sailor who served on aircraft carriers, I'll tell you that they take secrecy very seriously. I had a secret clearance to work on my system, which was a communications and radar system for aircraft. That this captain did this for his people is admirable, but from a security point of view also foolish and dangerous. I'm sure an attack on a compromised carrier would have disrupted those sailors far more than the panic virus would have.
Click to expand...


I don’t disagree.

my question is the hypothetical - if he notified his chain of command repeatedly and they didn’t do anything with a growing threat on his carrier. I wonder if that point he decides to sacrifice his career anyway.

so imagine a scenario where his chain refuses to do anything and he has medical officers telling him sailors are going to die as a result of something that could be avoided with proper attention?

recall the recent situation of Eddie Gallagher - testimony at trial indicated he routinely disregarded superiors and openly mocked them while he performed his work. (I’m not talking about the issue of the person he might have killed). He seemed untouchable by his superiors.
 
Evidently his fellow sailors appreciated what he did and he was willing to take the responsibility to protect his men/women.
 
Last edited:
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nikolas22 said:
Evidently his fellow sailors appreciated what he did and he was willing to take the responsibility to protect his men/women.
Click to expand...



he will be fine if he tried to notify his chain of command and it’s proven they ignored him. If that turns out to be the case, he’ll do great in his post military career.

But that remains to be seen yet. If he copied all those other folks on the email for the heck of it, I hope he saved a lot of money.
 
Rollerdude123 said:
I don’t know all the facts here but I did wonder....

What if you had a situation like this and the Captain couldn’t get his superiors to help or do anything. I’m NOT SAYING that happened here because I don’t know. I’m proposing a “what if”

do you just risk your career and make it public? It’s a twist on the Humphrey Bogart movie The Caine Mutiny

https://apple.news/AdNwbSBlrSgO_8JTJjul7mA
Click to expand...

The real reason for his removal, which was started before he wrote this letter, was his and his immediate superiors decision to make the port call in Vietnam, where they all caught this virus. He knew his career was sunk from that, thus his willingness to go public with the letter. He didn't risk anything with this letter, as his removal was already in the works. His immediate superior is likely being removed as well.
 
You do not get to be the Captain an aircraft carrier unless you are being groomed for greater things. This is a slot reserved for Naval Aviators who are being groomed for Admiral. This guy failed the test.
 
BattleshipTexas said:
The real reason for his removal, which was started before he wrote this letter, was his and his immediate superiors decision to make the port call in Vietnam, where they all caught this virus. He knew his career was sunk from that, thus his willingness to go public with the letter. He didn't risk anything with this letter, as his removal was already in the works. His immediate superior is likely being removed as well.
Click to expand...


Oh my. Really? Dang. I hadn’t seen this.

sounds like a mess of a situation.
 
Rollerdude123 said:
I don’t disagree.

my question is the hypothetical - if he notified his chain of command repeatedly and they didn’t do anything with a growing threat on his carrier. I wonder if that point he decides to sacrifice his career anyway.

so imagine a scenario where his chain refuses to do anything and he has medical officers telling him sailors are going to die as a result of something that could be avoided with proper attention?

recall the recent situation of Eddie Gallagher - testimony at trial indicated he routinely disregarded superiors and openly mocked them while he performed his work. (I’m not talking about the issue of the person he might have killed). He seemed untouchable by his superiors.
Click to expand...
Wtf cares what his COC did? He endangered 3300 to 5500 people by doing what he did in a far more immediate and real way. There are measures in place to go around a roadblock in your COC if you are not getting satisfactory results. Your job is to do what they say, and IF they ignored him it is more likely that they were figuring it out themselves or waiting on further orders from higher up.

The truth us your wild speculation that the COC did nothing is irrelevant because we do not know what they were told, what they were doing or not doing, and what their replies were. All we know is he breached security to make a statement and has been punished for endangering the lives of nearly 6000 people (if you include the air wing) for whom he is directly responsible. I'm not saying he was wrong, I'm saying the military said he was wrong, and rightfully so.
 
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Not going to question his decision, took courage to do that to potentially save the lives of his sailors.

Once said:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
 
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Rollerdude123 said:
I don’t know all the facts here but I did wonder....

What if you had a situation like this and the Captain couldn’t get his superiors to help or do anything. I’m NOT SAYING that happened here because I don’t know. I’m proposing a “what if”

do you just risk your career and make it public? It’s a twist on the Humphrey Bogart movie The Caine Mutiny

https://apple.news/AdNwbSBlrSgO_8JTJjul7mA
Click to expand...

He went through channels, but someone leaked it to media.....and that cost him his ship.
 
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