When Do Excuses Stop for Martin?He Recruited Every Schollie Player on Team

[wentzel25]

Originally posted by Jean Girard:

Originally posted by GamecockTripp:
Here's what's killing Martin right now. Two years ago he sacrificed the present to build for the future. After his first year he saw the writing on the wall and ran off 4 guys that were Horn recruits. These guys transferred to Furman, Coastal, Jacksonville, and High Point.

Brian Richardson averages 7.7 per game at High Point this year. Damien Leonard couldn't cut it at Furman and is now at Georgia Southwestern State. In Eric Smith's last year at Coastal he averaged 11 minutes and 2.5 points per game. RJ Slawson averaged 23 minutes and 8 points per game his last season at Jacksonville. I think it's pretty obvious that these guys had no business ever stepping foot on USC's campus yet this was the core of Martin's first team.

So we can all say what we want to about Martin being in his 3rd season but he's really in his 2nd and Tanner knows this. I'm sure Martin discussed getting rid of these guys with Tanner before he did it so we know Tanner was on board. Martin is going to get 5 years and maybe even 6 so you can save your breath bitching about him needing to go.

Blacklisted Cock Hudson.

Who ever said Martin was an "elite" coach? Coach K, Bill Self, Calipari, Izzo ... those are elite coaches. Martin is very good, but USC will never have an "elite" coach unless we get a guy who builds us up and never leaves a la K or Izzo.
This post was edited on 1/21 10:02 PM by uscbeckham

 

[ipull4usc]

Originally posted by GamecockTripp:
Here's what's killing Martin right now. Two years ago he sacrificed the present to build for the future. After his first year he saw the writing on the wall and ran off 4 guys that were Horn recruits. These guys transferred to Furman, Coastal, Jacksonville, and High Point.

Brian Richardson averages 7.7 per game at High Point this year. Damien Leonard couldn't cut it at Furman and is now at Georgia Southwestern State. In Eric Smith's last year at Coastal he averaged 11 minutes and 2.5 points per game. RJ Slawson averaged 23 minutes and 8 points per game his last season at Jacksonville. I think it's pretty obvious that these guys had no business ever stepping foot on USC's campus yet this was the core of Martin's first team.

So we can all say what we want to about Martin being in his 3rd season but he's really in his 2nd and Tanner knows this. I'm sure Martin discussed getting rid of these guys with Tanner before he did it so we know Tanner was on board. Martin is going to get 5 years and maybe even 6 so you can save your breath bitching about him needing to go.

Donnie Tyndall is in his FIRST YEAR at Tennessee, which returned THREE scholarship players from last year's Tennessee team. He has NINE scholarship players TOTAL. Tennessee was picked THIRTEENTH in the SEC (USC was picked 12th). And he just took his team into Columbia and beat Frank Martin, who's in his THIRD YEAR, and who recruited, offered, and has coached EVERY scholarship player on the USC roster.



This post was edited on 1/21 9:52 AM by ipull4usc

 

[Sending an SOS]

So many fans have such flawed logic in turning around this program.

"Hey - lets go spend $2M to hire a great coach and things will be better in no time!"

Are you that naive? How many coaches have to fail before you realize how hard things are to turn around this program? You can't throw deep balls on every play and expect to win. It's 2-3 yard running plays - sustained drives - gradual progress that builds a program.

We aren't a powerhouse program. You can't just turn things around by hiring a coach. It takes time to bring in the right guys (knowing that no coach gets their recruits right 100% of the time. It takes culture change. It takes a lot more than hiring the right guy to make a difference.

Give Frank Martin at least 5 years. Stop hitting the panic button!! What does another reset do for this program? I can assure you that the negatives far outweighs the positives.

Look - we've played some really competitive games. We even beat what looks like a great team in ISU. A young team that is learning and growing everyday has ups and downs. They lose focus. They regain it. Sometimes it takes some tough coaching to change that. The win games they shouldn't and they lose games they shouldn't.

What do you expect? I don't recall Spurrier winning 10 games the first several years he was here.

Get a grip...

 

[uscfan1981]

Originally posted by ipull4usc:

Originally posted by GamecockTripp:
Here's what's killing Martin right now. Two years ago he sacrificed the present to build for the future. After his first year he saw the writing on the wall and ran off 4 guys that were Horn recruits. These guys transferred to Furman, Coastal, Jacksonville, and High Point.

Brian Richardson averages 7.7 per game at High Point this year. Damien Leonard couldn't cut it at Furman and is now at Georgia Southwestern State. In Eric Smith's last year at Coastal he averaged 11 minutes and 2.5 points per game. RJ Slawson averaged 23 minutes and 8 points per game his last season at Jacksonville. I think it's pretty obvious that these guys had no business ever stepping foot on USC's campus yet this was the core of Martin's first team.

So we can all say what we want to about Martin being in his 3rd season but he's really in his 2nd and Tanner knows this. I'm sure Martin discussed getting rid of these guys with Tanner before he did it so we know Tanner was on board. Martin is going to get 5 years and maybe even 6 so you can save your breath bitching about him needing to go.

Donnie Tyndall is in his FIRST YEAR at Tennessee, which returned THREE scholarship players from last year's Tennessee team. He has NINE scholarship players TOTAL. Tennessee was picked THIRTEENTH in the SEC (USC was picked 12th). And he just took his team into Columbia and beat Frank Martin, who's in his THIRD YEAR, and who recruited, offered, and has coached EVERY scholarship player on the USC roster.




This post was edited on 1/21 9:52 AM by ipull4usc

Thats hurts.

Bruce Pearl and AU passed us in 1/2 of a season. That is what great coaches do.
We hired a pretty good coach that has never built a program to pull the Titanic off the bottom when we could have had a coach that built TWO programs - Thank you Hyman.

 

[Rollerdude123]

I've heard this line of reasoning so many times it makes my cat puke.

First, I am not for firing Martin because it's not going to happen. He will be given another few years even if he never wins another game. I get that. I think he will eventually be let go in a few years - but it will be another few years. So talking about firing him now is silly.

However, -

We were supposed to be greatly improved this year because Thornwell was going to have experience under his belt (instead he seems to have largely lost his confidence, and Notice has disappeared for some reason where to where he is essentially being benched last night).

Dozier and Silva will be inexperienced players next year. (Dozier has been recovering from a knee injury that has plagued him for part of 2 seasons in high school). He will be a good player. But he might not be a player that contributes to making our team better next year. He will be a freshman that has been hampered in high school by a knee injury. That's not a recipe for instant impact.

Other teams in the SEC are getting better. Tennessee beat us at our place last night with 3 returning scholarship players and 9 total. They will be better next year because history tells us they recruit better than we do.

Auburn beat us with a combination of transfers from smaller schools, Jucos, and a former walk on - after an off-season that saw their brand new head coach prevented from recruiting by the NCAA.





Originally posted by ReadR00ster:


Next year is set up to be a big year for us, we only lose Johnson and Blanton, Dozier, and Silva enter the mix. I want to to see this team does with a bunch of upperclassmen and those talented new guys before I judge. We haven't had team with a ton of experience in a long while. We will have that next year.

This post was edited on 1/21 2:07 PM by Rollerdude123

 

[GamecockTripp]

So maybe Donnie Tyndall is just a better coach? So? That doesn't mean Martin isn't a good coach. My point is, we have Martin and we're going to have him this season, next season, the next season, and maybe even the next season. The same 8-10 people coming on here after every loss and bitching for 48 hours straight isn't going to change that.

 

[ReadR00ster]

Originally posted by Rollerdude123:

I've heard this line of reasoning so many times it makes my cat puke.

First, I am not for firing Martin because it's not going to happen. He will be given another few years even if he never wins another game. I get that. I think he will eventually be let go in a few years - but it will be another few years. So talking about firing him now is silly.

However, -

We were supposed to be greatly improved this year because Thornwell was going to have experience under his belt (instead he seems to have largely lost his confidence, and Notice has disappeared for some reason where to where he is essentially being benched last night).

Dozier and Silva will be inexperienced players next year. (Dozier has been recovering from a knee injury that has plagued him for part of 2 seasons in high school). He will be a good player. But he might not be a player that contributes to making our team better next year. He will be a freshman that has been hampered in high school by a knee injury. That's not a recipe for instant impact.

Other teams in the SEC are getting better. Tennessee beat us at our place last night with 3 returning scholarship players and 9 total. They will be better next year because history tells us they recruit better than we do.

Auburn beat us with a combination of transfers from smaller schools, Jucos, and a former walk on - after an off-season that saw their brand new head coach prevented from recruiting by the NCAA.





Originally posted by ReadR00ster:


Next year is set up to be a big year for us, we only lose Johnson and Blanton, Dozier, and Silva enter the mix. I want to to see this team does with a bunch of upperclassmen and those talented new guys before I judge. We haven't had team with a ton of experience in a long while. We will have that next year.

This post was edited on 1/21 2:07 PM by Rollerdude123

You suffer from having expectations for this year other than just generally improving. That was a dumb misguided mistake. We aren't Auburn and we aren't Tennessee, good for freaking them for managing to beat us. You think they got it all figured out right off the bat? Than go add a bunch of orange to wardrobe and and throw away all the garnet. Good for them for recruiting the right he players from the get go. That is what is holding Martin back right now. He wasn't able to do that. The guys he recruited where Kacinas, Brenton Williams, Chat, and Carerra and he didn't have a whole ton of time to recruit and it's not easy for a team in the dumps that just fired it's coach to get recruits. Martin has been playing catch up ever since. His second recruiting class was much better an they are only sophomores.

One year of experience is good for Thornwell and Notice, but it's not going to all of sudden turn them into Kobe Bryant and Derrick Rose. It's ridiculous to think this is going to be some kind of breakout year just because our good freshman became sophomores. They still need more experience in a offense that finally at least has some cohesion. We brought in Stroman who seems like a real keeper. We'll see what we got with Blanton Dozier and Silva next year.

Martin is building his team. He's put in the foundation and walls, now we just have to put a roof on it. It's sucks for this year, but you can't live in house with no roof. You have to hope for nice weather all the time, which basically like saying we are keeping our fingers crossed that the other team plays even worse that we do. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. At least we make that a reasonable question just about every game.

 

[prizerooster]

Originally posted by GamecockTripp:
Here's what's killing Martin right now. Two years ago he sacrificed the present to build for the future. After his first year he saw the writing on the wall and ran off 4 guys that were Horn recruits. These guys transferred to Furman, Coastal, Jacksonville, and High Point.

Brian Richardson averages 7.7 per game at High Point this year. Damien Leonard couldn't cut it at Furman and is now at Georgia Southwestern State. In Eric Smith's last year at Coastal he averaged 11 minutes and 2.5 points per game. RJ Slawson averaged 23 minutes and 8 points per game his last season at Jacksonville. I think it's pretty obvious that these guys had no business ever stepping foot on USC's campus yet this was the core of Martin's first team.

So we can all say what we want to about Martin being in his 3rd season but he's really in his 2nd and Tanner knows this. I'm sure Martin discussed getting rid of these guys with Tanner before he did it so we know Tanner was on board. Martin is going to get 5 years and maybe even 6 so you can save your breath bitching about him needing to go.

Even if he had to 'run off' some of Horns kids from 2010 or 11, he's still recruited well enough in '12, '13 and '14 to be doing better. I'm on the side of giving it another year, but not 2 or 3 more seasons, no way.

 

[GamecockTripp]

Like who? Nobody wanted Notice, Chat, Kacinas, Theus, and Carrera. McKie was going to Murray State before we offered him late. Ringer and Shaw were busts. Shepard and Blanton are hurt. Thompson never enrolled. The only guys on the roster anyone really even wanted were Thornwell, Henry, Stroman, and Johnson. That's 4 guys that are healthy and available that other major programs actually wanted. 4 guys in 3 classes.

 

[prizerooster]

Originally posted by GamecockTripp:
So maybe Donnie Tyndall is just a better coach? So? That doesn't mean Martin isn't a good coach. My point is, we have Martin and we're going to have him this season, next season, the next season, and maybe even the next season. The same 8-10 people coming on here after every loss and bitching for 48 hours straight isn't going to change that.

That was my point because he seems to be doing more with about equal talent. True, we don't have a Josh Richardson but it's not like Tyndall has anyone after that any higher rated than our guys. He's just getting them to somehow play a lot better.

 

[prizerooster]

Originally posted by GamecockTripp:
Like who? Nobody wanted Notice, Chat, Kacinas, Theus, and Carrera. McKie was going to Murray State before we offered him late. Ringer and Shaw were busts. Shepard and Blanton are hurt. Thompson never enrolled. The only guys on the roster anyone really even wanted were Thornwell, Henry, Stroman, and Johnson. That's 4 guys that are healthy and available that other major programs actually wanted. 4 guys in 3 classes.

Who we have as players cant be an excuse for fans or for coach. He signed them so he obviously felt he could do something with them. Hopefully he wasn't throwing darts at a board. I'm sort've expecting a little more from Chat, Kacinas and Carrera at this point.

 

[ReadR00ster]

Originally posted by prizerooster:

Originally posted by GamecockTripp:
Like who? Nobody wanted Notice, Chat, Kacinas, Theus, and Carrera. McKie was going to Murray State before we offered him late. Ringer and Shaw were busts. Shepard and Blanton are hurt. Thompson never enrolled. The only guys on the roster anyone really even wanted were Thornwell, Henry, Stroman, and Johnson. That's 4 guys that are healthy and available that other major programs actually wanted. 4 guys in 3 classes.

Who we have as players cant be an excuse for fans or for coach. He signed them so he obviously felt he could do something with them. Hopefully he wasn't throwing darts at a board. I'm sort've expecting a little more from Chat, Kacinas and Carrera at this point.

It's absolutely ridiculous to be expecting more from these guys. On short notice for a program in the dumps he grabbed some decent benchwamer caliber players because that is all he could do, and he improved them as much as they can be improved for the time they have been here and made decent contributers out of them. Yes, I forgive Martin for his first year. They will be the depth we need next year when we finally have enough starting Div 1 talent I hope we can compete with. Kacinas has made the biggest improvement. I think he should get more looks, actually. He's finally put some meat on his bones.

 

[ReadR00ster]

Originally posted by prizerooster:

Originally posted by GamecockTripp:
Like who? Nobody wanted Notice, Chat, Kacinas, Theus, and Carrera. McKie was going to Murray State before we offered him late. Ringer and Shaw were busts. Shepard and Blanton are hurt. Thompson never enrolled. The only guys on the roster anyone really even wanted were Thornwell, Henry, Stroman, and Johnson. That's 4 guys that are healthy and available that other major programs actually wanted. 4 guys in 3 classes.

Who we have as players cant be an excuse for fans or for coach. He signed them so he obviously felt he could do something with them. Hopefully he wasn't throwing darts at a board. I'm sort've expecting a little more from Chat, Kacinas and Carrera at this point.

It's absolutely ridiculous to be expecting more from these guys. On short notice for a program in the dumps Martin grabbed some decent benchwamer caliber players because that is all he could do, and he improved them as much as they can be improved for the time they have been here and made decent contributers out of them. Yes, I forgive Martin for his first year. They will be the depth we need next year when we finally have enough starting Div 1 talent I hope we can compete with. Kacinas has made the biggest improvement. I think he should get more looks, actually. He's finally put some meat on his bones. Anyway, there is not way in hell I am counting that shortened first year of recruiting against Martin.

This post was edited on 1/21 11:13 PM by ReadR00ster

 

[_NOVA_]

Originally posted by Sending an SOS:
Give the man 5 good years. Until then, why can't you just be patient and see what happens?

Are you going to let him go a full five years, on a six year contract, and then evaluate him? Are you going to let him get to where he has just one year left of his contract? How is that going to work out with recruiting? You're going to let a guy, who might conceivably have no winning seasons at the school, get to a point where he has just one or two years left on a contact before you start evaluating? That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works.

You might want to give him five good years, but he's going to need an extension before then-- for both recruiting, assistants and probably his ego. Are you giving this guy an extension after this season? What if next season is also dreadful-- extension time?

 

[FORKCOCK]

We have no choice but to keep Frank. We are better than we were last year but we're still pretty bad.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[radcock]

Is the OP really suggesting we fire a coach in his 3rd year after sucking for all but 4 seasons of the past 50 years? How do you recruit to a school that has not won an NCAA basketball game in my conscious lifetime? You don't think the recruits know this history?

Auburn and UT have been way better than us. We are currently a dumpster fire and it will take time, stability and recruiting to get us out of it.

Honestly, unless Frank pulls a Brad Scott in his 5th season, I would give him 6 years without question.

I also think that we have such a sorry reputation that any SEC team we play feels optimistic that they can win. I listened to the captain on the radio and his pregame comments were mainly that UT can't score. Well, 10 3 pointers later, I was not convinced.

Also, Thornwell, Notice and Henry have disappointed me this season. I hope they get it going. Johnson and Stroman look ok at times but we do not have a 3 point shooter (Notice) and Thornwell is struggling from outside which means he will struggle to get any inside game going. The others (Chat, McKie, et al ) seem to be producing more than I would have expected but are not game changers.

If PJ's knee holds up and Silva is as advertised, we should improve next season. However, we need a true difference maker ( Dozier???) to take the pressure off the other guys. That is how basketball works. If you don't have a go-to guy (or 2 really) who can take over or win a game late, then you end up with what we have here today.

I feel bad for Frank. He has obviously coached these guys better than what is consistently showing on the court. (Plus it appears that he has curbed the cussing) If you have any appreciation for offensive philosophy, it is apparent that franks offense gets us open shots. Unfortunately, we miss them too often and then seem to get discouraged. Losing is a disease and we got it.

I expect a blowout loss on Saturday. I think our players and fans do as well. It is probably a good time for gamecock fans who have a distaste for the incessant negative to vacate from the boards for awhile. Fortunately, I have plenty to do these days!

 

[prizerooster]

Originally posted by ReadR00ster:

Originally posted by prizerooster:

Originally posted by GamecockTripp:
Like who? Nobody wanted Notice, Chat, Kacinas, Theus, and Carrera. McKie was going to Murray State before we offered him late. Ringer and Shaw were busts. Shepard and Blanton are hurt. Thompson never enrolled. The only guys on the roster anyone really even wanted were Thornwell, Henry, Stroman, and Johnson. That's 4 guys that are healthy and available that other major programs actually wanted. 4 guys in 3 classes.

Who we have as players cant be an excuse for fans or for coach. He signed them so he obviously felt he could do something with them. Hopefully he wasn't throwing darts at a board. I'm sort've expecting a little more from Chat, Kacinas and Carrera at this point.

It's absolutely ridiculous to be expecting more from these guys. On short notice for a program in the dumps Martin grabbed some decent benchwamer caliber players because that is all he could do, and he improved them as much as they can be improved for the time they have been here and made decent contributers out of them. Yes, I forgive Martin for his first year. They will be the depth we need next year when we finally have enough starting Div 1 talent I hope we can compete with. Kacinas has made the biggest improvement. I think he should get more looks, actually. He's finally put some meat on his bones. Anyway, there is not way in hell I am counting that shortened first year of recruiting against Martin.

This post was edited on 1/21 11:13 PM by ReadR00ster

No, it is'nt ridiculous. They have 3 years of experience in this league. The turtle over the mountains at UT inherited guys like that. Shall we get real here? Moore, Reese, Hubbs, etc. Plus his own guys he brought in. Dude does'nt have a guy who plays that's over 6'8. Beat us down, may do it again. He has his whole roster including the walk-on or two, playing ball. He inherited exactly ONE star player. That's it!