Is it fair to judge Frank by the tournament standard?

[JDishnell]

Or any men's basketball coach, for that matter? I'm as guilty as anyone of being ready to move on from Frank. I think by now we see what we're going to get with him. This is Year 8, so we have a pretty good sample size. He doesn't recruit well, but who has?

I understand that, on the one hand, you always have the goal of making the tournament. On the other, you have reality: until our magical Final Four run in 2016-2017, we'd been to 4 NCAAT since the 1973-1974 season, getting bounced in the first round each time. That's a grand total of 4 tournament games played in 42 seasons. Averages out to one tournament game a decade. Frank had us in 5 NCAAT games in 2016-2017, so that's 50 seasons of tournament games in one year if you look at it that way.

In our entire history, we have a grand total of 20 postseason appearances (9 NCAAT, 11 NIT). People often look back to the McGuire years as the standard, but those 5 really good seasons under McGuire stand in stark contrast to the bulk of our history, over which we've been mediocre-to-bad.

I fully understand the drive for excellence and never settling for mediocrity, and this isn't intended as a pro-Frank thread. You can check my post history to see that I'm as disenchanted as anyone. I'm not suggesting to give up or stop trying, but WHY should we expect Frank to do what's really never been done here before? (Yes, I know Spurrier very briefly turned our football program around and accomplished things that had never been done, but not even he could sustain it and look at the shape he left the program...shambles in own words).

 

[king ward]

Is it fair to judge Frank by the tournament standard?

College basketball is a high-capital business. Our compensation structure is profanely inflated when laid against overall performance. In the most pragmatic terms, the answer is "YES".

 

[JDishnell]

College basketball is a high-capital business. Our compensation structure is profanely inflated when laid against overall performance. In the most pragmatic terms, the answer is "YES".

Pragmatism deals with the practical and not the theoretical, though. Practically-speaking, one has to consider our history.

One could certainly argue that he is overpaid.

 

[usc01#]

Question for everyone: would you rather have had Frank Martin’s team made it to 5 out of 7 NCAA Tournaments and LOST every game (0-5; first round losses) or 1 out of 7 NCAA tournaments and do what we did that one year? We played in 5 games and went 4-1 and were within 4 points of playing for a championship. (ANY other coach not named Tanner done that? And yes; I’m only including men’s sports in this—I know what Dawn Staley has done)

I hear all the damn time on this board that he’s only made 1 NCAA Tournament (his team was ROBBED the year before for another bid) in 7 years-this is year 8 and not over with. Again; would you rather have had 5 out of 7 trips with a first round loss each year? I’d rather of had the 1 trip ALL THE WAY TO THE FINAL FOUR. I’ll say one thing—our other men’s programs coaches (football and baseball) need to go and observe an actual program that consistently finishes in the top 6 (better than half) of the conference. They might learn something.

 

[king ward]

Pragmatism deals with the practical and not the theoretical, though. Practically-speaking, one has to consider our history.

One could certainly argue that he is overpaid.

I understand. Our satisfaction with that history, or lack thereof, must come into play also - at some point. The school is playing a lot for what is being derived.

 

[king ward]

Question for everyone: would you rather have Frank Martin’s team made it to 5 out of 7 NCAA Tournaments and LOST every game (0-5; first round losses) or 1 out of 7 NCAA tournaments and do what we did that one year? We played in 5 games and went 4-1 and were within 4 points of playing for a championship.

I hear all the damn time on this board that he’s only made 1 NCAA Tournament (his team was ROBBED the year before for another bid) in 7 years-this is year 8 and not over with. Again; would you rather have had 5 out of 7 trips with a first round loss each year? I’d rather of had the 1 trip ALL THE WAY TO THE FINAL FOUR. I’ll say one thing—our other men’s programs coaches (football and baseball) need to go and observe an actual program that consistently finishes in the top 6 (better than half) of the conference. They might learn something.

I hear these hypothetical questions all the time, which are moot. But I'll answer yours. I choose the first option. It would engender a lot of good basketball.

 

[JDishnell]

Question for everyone: would you rather have Frank Martin’s team made it to 5 out of 7 NCAA Tournaments and LOST every game (0-5; first round losses) or 1 out of 7 NCAA tournaments and do what we did that one year? We played in 5 games and went 4-1 and were within 4 points of playing for a championship.

I hear all the damn time on this board that he’s only made 1 NCAA Tournament (his team was ROBBED the year before for another bid) in 7 years-this is year 8 and not over with. Again; would you rather have had 5 out of 7 trips with a first round loss each year? I’d rather of had the 1 trip ALL THE WAY TO THE FINAL FOUR. I’ll say one thing—our other men’s programs coaches (football and baseball) need to go and observe an actual program that consistently finishes in the top 6 (better than half) of the conference. They might learn something.

That's a toss-up. You'd be trading one REALLY good season for 5 good seasons. Flash in the pan vs consistent success. I dunno. Maybe it'd be a different story if that 2016-2017 had been a great season all around, but we simply got hot in the tournament. I probably lean towards consistent success.

 

[brianlafe]

Pragmatism deals with the practical and not the theoretical, though. Practically-speaking, one has to consider our history.

One could certainly argue that he is overpaid.

Hilarious!

 

[usc01#]

I hear these hypothetical questions all the time, which are moot. But I'll answer yours. I choose the first option. It would engender a lot of good basketball,

So you’d rather go to the NCAA’s 5 out of 7 years and not win one game? WOW. You’d be bitching about Martin not being able to win a tournament game then. I’d take the latter—a final four on your resume looks much better than a constant loser who can’t get past the first round.

 

[JDishnell]

So you’d rather go to the NCAA’s 5 out of 7 years and not win one game? WOW. You’d be bitching about Martin not being able to win a tournament game then. I’d take the latter—a final four on your resume looks much better than a constant loser who can’t get past the first round.

I did not read your post correctly. What you gave is a bad comparison. Making the Final Four would equate to making the Tournament 5 times, winning one game each time, not going 0-5.

 

[paladin181]

I think so. If you're not striving for excellence it sets a bad example for the student athletes. If you're content to not be in the top 20% of Baketball teams, then why be a coach? We want to improve these young men's lives, but you can't send the message that OK is good enough. It's perfectly fair to judge a coach on the overall performance of his teams. I'd settle for once every 2 years, or 2 of every 3. I think that should be the minimum standard, personally. We should be competing with the money we're paying the coach and investing in the facilities. Otherwise it's just window dressing on a run-down doublewide.

 

[usc01#]

I did not read your post correctly. What you gave is a bad comparison. Making the Final Four would equate to making the Tournament 5 times, winning one game each time, not going 0-5.

It’s not a bad comparison—it’s a hypothetical question. I hear the argument that Martin has made the tournament 1 out of 7 years. That is why I asked the hypothetical question. Two people (so far) would rather go to the tournament 5 out of 7 years and LOSE every year (0-5) rather than have that one year in which our team goes to the Final Four (and go 4-1 in that tournament). Again; based off of that; people would be bitching that Martin can’t win a game in the tournament and would want to move in another direction.

 

[GamecockinHouston]

Question for everyone: would you rather have Frank Martin’s team made it to 5 out of 7 NCAA Tournaments and LOST every game (0-5; first round losses) or 1 out of 7 NCAA tournaments and do what we did that one year? We played in 5 games and went 4-1 and were within 4 points of playing for a championship. (ANY other coach not named Tanner done that? And yes; I’m only including men’s sports in this—I know what Dawn Staley has done)

I hear all the damn time on this board that he’s only made 1 NCAA Tournament (his team was ROBBED the year before for another bid) in 7 years-this is year 8 and not over with. Again; would you rather have had 5 out of 7 trips with a first round loss each year? I’d rather of had the 1 trip ALL THE WAY TO THE FINAL FOUR. I’ll say one thing—our other men’s programs coaches (football and baseball) need to go and observe an actual program that consistently finishes in the top 6 (better than half) of the conference. They might learn something.

Well in your hypothetical we could have won the SEC in 5 of those years, so I would take 5 SEC championships over a Final Four in 7 years.

 

[JDishnell]

I think so. If you're not striving for excellence it sets a bad example for the student athletes. If you're content to not be in the top 20% of Baketball teams, then why be a coach? We want to improve these young men's lives, but you can't send the message that OK is good enough. It's perfectly fair to judge a coach on the overall performance of his teams. I'd settle for once every 2 years, or 2 of every 3. I think that should be the minimum standard, personally. We should be competing with the money we're paying the coach and investing in the facilities. Otherwise it's just window dressing on a run-down doublewide.

There's probably more of an argument to be made that we should just settle and get a bargain bin coach and save a ton of money. Based purely on history.

You just can't pay a coach a lot of money and expect that to translate to wins. Obviously.

 

[JDishnell]

It’s not a bad comparison—it’s a hypothetical question. I hear the argument that Martin has made the tournament 1 out of 7 years. That is why I asked the hypothetical question. Two people (so far) would rather go to the tournament 5 out of 7 years and LOSE every year (0-5) rather than have that one year in which our team goes to the Final Four (and go 4-1 in that tournament). Again; based off of that; people would be bitching that Martin can’t win a game in the tournament and would want to move in another direction.

One of the 2 was me and I stated that read your statement incorrectly.

 

[paladin181]

There's probably more of an argument to be made that we should just settle and get a bargain bin coach and save a ton of money. Based purely on history.

You just can't pay a coach a lot of money and expect that to translate to wins. Obviously.

That's absolutely right. But we are paying a LOT of money into Martin and a lot into the facilities. Why make those investments if we aren't going to at least appear to try and compete? You could argue that our history dooms us, or we could get someone capable of bucking the trend and making headway.

 

[JDishnell]

Bring a guy in on a 100% incentive contract. Paid on a per-win basis with incentives for winning the SECT, making the NCAAAT and incentives for each round of the NCAAT.

Win a game, get paid. Win another, get paid again. Lose, don't get paid. $150,000/win would come out to $3 million for a 20 win season.

 

[usc01#]

Well in your hypothetical we could have won the SEC in 5 of those years, so I would take 5 SEC championships over a Final Four in 7 years.

Or we could’ve been a bubble team just like this year. And based of your hypothetical if we would have won 5 SEC Championships out of 7 seasons and failed to win 1 NCAA game people would be bitching like hell that our coach can’t get past the first round. But hypothetically he’d never get to 5 out of 7 SEC Championships because he would’ve left for another job. Hey, we could try and get Darrin Horn back he did an amazing job with the program. At least Martin consistently has us in the conversation every year.

 

[SOSUSC]

Or any men's basketball coach, for that matter? I'm as guilty as anyone of being ready to move on from Frank. I think by now we see what we're going to get with him. This is Year 8, so we have a pretty good sample size. He doesn't recruit well, but who has?

I understand that, on the one hand, you always have the goal of making the tournament. On the other, you have reality: until our magical Final Four run in 2016-2017, we'd been to 4 NCAAT since the 1973-1974 season, getting bounced in the first round each time. That's a grand total of 4 tournament games played in 42 seasons. Averages out to one tournament game a decade. Frank had us in 5 NCAAT games in 2016-2017, so that's 50 seasons of tournament games in one year if you look at it that way.

In our entire history, we have a grand total of 20 postseason appearances (9 NCAAT, 11 NIT). People often look back to the McGuire years as the standard, but those 5 really good seasons under McGuire stand in stark contrast to the bulk of our history, over which we've been mediocre-to-bad.

I fully understand the drive for excellence and never settling for mediocrity, and this isn't intended as a pro-Frank thread. You can check my post history to see that I'm as disenchanted as anyone. I'm not suggesting to give up or stop trying, but WHY should we expect Frank to do what's really never been done here before? (Yes, I know Spurrier very briefly turned our football program around and accomplished things that had never been done, but not even he could sustain it and look at the shape he left the program...shambles in own words).

Because we no longer want to be mediocre. This is a great University and needs athletics to be good.

Because the right coach can turn this around. Look at Dawn. She coaches in the toughest WBB Conference and she has the team heading toward a second NC

Because we now have the money to make these changes. These are investments not expenses. We have more money than Clemson and yet we make bond headed decisions like hiring RT as AD.

Because Athletics does a lot for a university’s image and stature. It helps with enrollments and helps lift academics to a higher level.

 

[JDishnell]

Because we no longer want to be mediocre. This is a great University and needs athletics to be good.

Because the right coach can turn this around. Look at Dawn. She coaches in the toughest WBB Conference and she has the team heading toward a second NC

Because we now have the money to make these changes. These are investments not expenses. We have more money than Clemson and yet we make bond headed decisions like hiring RT as AD.

Because Athletics does a lot for a university’s image and stature. It helps with enrollments and helps lift academics to a higher level.

We struck pure gold with Dawn. That's how it goes with coaching. 9 times out of 10, it's pure luck.

All your arguments are theoretical. We should win b/c we expect to win. We should win b/c we pay a lot of money.

 

[SlashElectric]

Yes.

Or any men's basketball coach, for that matter? I'm as guilty as anyone of being ready to move on from Frank. I think by now we see what we're going to get with him. This is Year 8, so we have a pretty good sample size. He doesn't recruit well, but who has?

I understand that, on the one hand, you always have the goal of making the tournament. On the other, you have reality: until our magical Final Four run in 2016-2017, we'd been to 4 NCAAT since the 1973-1974 season, getting bounced in the first round each time. That's a grand total of 4 tournament games played in 42 seasons. Averages out to one tournament game a decade. Frank had us in 5 NCAAT games in 2016-2017, so that's 50 seasons of tournament games in one year if you look at it that way.

In our entire history, we have a grand total of 20 postseason appearances (9 NCAAT, 11 NIT). People often look back to the McGuire years as the standard, but those 5 really good seasons under McGuire stand in stark contrast to the bulk of our history, over which we've been mediocre-to-bad.

I fully understand the drive for excellence and never settling for mediocrity, and this isn't intended as a pro-Frank thread. You can check my post history to see that I'm as disenchanted as anyone. I'm not suggesting to give up or stop trying, but WHY should we expect Frank to do what's really never been done here before? (Yes, I know Spurrier very briefly turned our football program around and accomplished things that had never been done, but not even he could sustain it and look at the shape he left the program...shambles in own words).

 

[JDishnell]

Yes.

Can you support your position?

 

[Brace1]

 

[SlashElectric]

NCAAT appearances, Sweet 16 appearances, and Final Four appearances are the currency of college basketball. We fail to meet the lowest denominator of success 90% of the time.

 

[JDishnell]

NCAAT appearances, Sweet 16 appearances, and Final Four appearances are the currency of college basketball. We fail to meet the lowest denominator of success 90% of the time.

But why? You're just regurgitating fan speak.

 

[GamecockinHouston]

Or we could’ve been a bubble team just like this year. And based of your hypothetical if we would have won 5 SEC Championships out of 7 seasons and failed to win 1 NCAA game people would be bitching like hell that our coach can’t get past the first round. But hypothetically he’d never get to 5 out of 7 SEC Championships because he would’ve left for another job. Hey, we could try and get Darrin Horn back he did an amazing job with the program. At least Martin consistently has us in the conversation every year.

Hypotheticals are fun aren't they?

BTW Darrin Horn is 21-8 this year (13-4 in conference). Maybe it is South Carolina? Maybe he just a small league coach. Would never want him back.

 

[Harvard Gamecock]

Question for everyone: would you rather have had Frank Martin’s team made it to 5 out of 7 NCAA Tournaments and LOST every game (0-5; first round losses) or 1 out of 7 NCAA tournaments and do what we did that one year? We played in 5 games and went 4-1 and were within 4 points of playing for a championship. (ANY other coach not named Tanner done that? And yes; I’m only including men’s sports in this—I know what Dawn Staley has done)

I hear all the damn time on this board that he’s only made 1 NCAA Tournament (his team was ROBBED the year before for another bid) in 7 years-this is year 8 and not over with. Again; would you rather have had 5 out of 7 trips with a first round loss each year? I’d rather of had the 1 trip ALL THE WAY TO THE FINAL FOUR. I’ll say one thing—our other men’s programs coaches (football and baseball) need to go and observe an actual program that consistently finishes in the top 6 (better than half) of the conference. They might learn something.

I fail to understand why this has to be an either / or question on the past.
FM should be judged on a yearly performance, just like the overwhelming majority of the
work force. If an employee continues to miss their agreed to goals, then changes are warranted. This should not be a complicated issue.

 

[JDishnell]

In the history of college basketball, has their ever been a team with our pedigree that turned it around to become a fairly consistent fixture in the NCAAT? We're asking someone to come here and do what's never been done in the history of the sport.

 

[ToddFlanders]

I think that making the tournament is a fair standard to measure Frank's job performance, and other similarly situated coaches in multi-bid leagues.
(I don't think it's a fair standard for coaches in one-bid leagues).

As long as a school doesn't have any glaring weaknesses as it relates to the rest of their conference, such as a lack of resources or something else that puts them behind the 8-ball, then trips to the tournament should be a reasonable expectation.

 

[GamecockinHouston]

In the history of college basketball, has their ever been a team with our pedigree that turned it around to become a fairly consistent fixture in the NCAAT? We're asking someone to come here and do what's never been done in the history of the sport.

Baylor

 

[Carolina Cocktail]

Can you support your position?

How about Lack of Player Development and/or Recruiting??? Which ever way the Pumpers want to Pump it, these were his 'Stars' who played after college.
Professional players coached
Player Years Coached NBA Draft Current/Last Pro Team Highest Level Played
Kansas State
Henry Walker 1, Left Early 47th, Washington Wizards, 2008 NBA Draft Galatasaray S.K. NBA
Michael Beasley 1, Left Early 2nd, Miami Heat, 2008 NBA Draft Los Angeles Lakers NBA
Denis Clemente 2, Graduated Undrafted, 2010 Fuerza Regia NBA Summer
Luis Colon 3, Graduated Undrafted, 2010 Vaqueros de Bayamón International
Jacob Pullen 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2011 Afyonkarahisar Belediyespor NBA
Curtis Kelly 2, Graduated Undrafted, 2011 Magnolia Hotshots International
Jamar Samuels 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2012 SCM Craiova International
Dominique Sutton 3, Transferred Undrafted, 2012 Aquila Basket Trento NBA G League
Ron Anderson 2, Transferred Undrafted, 2012 Saint-Chamond Basket NBA G League
Jordan Henriquez 3, Coach Change Undrafted, 2013 Westchester Knicks NBA G League
Martavious Irving 3, Coach Change Undrafted, 2013 Pelita Jaya Energi Mega Persada International
Rodney McGruder 3, Coach Change Undrafted, 2013 Miami Heat NBA
Freddy Asprilla 1, Transferred Undrafted, 2013 Caciques de Humacao International
Juevol Myles 1, Transferred Undrafted, 2013 Nitra (Slovakia) International
Wally Judge 2, Transferred Undrafted, 2014 Tampereen Pyrintö (basketball) International
Nick Russell 2, Transferred Undrafted, 2014 BCM U Pitești International
Shane Southwell 2, Coach Change Undrafted, 2014 Winterthur International
Thomas Gipson 1, Coach Change Undrafted, 2015 Kouvot International
Nino Williams 2, Coach Change Undrafted, 2015 KK Škofja Loka International
Ángel Rodríguez 1, Coach Change Undrafted, 2016 Maccabi Haifa B.C. NBA Summer
Adrian Diaz 1, Coach Change Undrafted, 2016 CSS Bega Timisoara International
South Carolina
Lakeem Jackson 1, Graduated Undrafted, 2013 ETB Wohnbau Baskets International
RJ Slawson 1, Transferred Undrafted, 2014 FC Schalke International
Tyrone Johnson 2, Graduated Undrafted, 2015 KK Borac Čačak NBA G League
Michael Carrera 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2016 Oklahoma City Blue NBA G League
Laimonas Chatkevicius 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2016 BC Neptūnas International
Mindaugas Kačinas 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2016 BC Neptūnas International
Sindarius Thornwell 4, Graduated 48th, Milwaukee Bucks, 2017 NBA Draft Cleveland Cavaliers NBA
P. J. Dozier 2, Left early Undrafted, 2017 Boston Celtics NBA
Duane Notice 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2017 Raptors 905 NBA G League
Frank Booker Jr. 1, Graduated Undrafted, 2018 ALM Évreux Basket International
Chris Silva 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2019 Miami Heat NBA

 

[JDishnell]

Baylor

Drew is a good example, though his go of it is likely a bit easier. Anyone who does it here will have to do it in the VERY long shadow of UNC and Duke.

 

[JDishnell]

How about Lack of Player Development and/or Recruiting??? Which ever way the Pumpers want to Pump it, these were his 'Stars' who played after college.
Professional players coached
Player Years Coached NBA Draft Current/Last Pro Team Highest Level Played
Kansas State
Henry Walker 1, Left Early 47th, Washington Wizards, 2008 NBA Draft Galatasaray S.K. NBA
Michael Beasley 1, Left Early 2nd, Miami Heat, 2008 NBA Draft Los Angeles Lakers NBA
Denis Clemente 2, Graduated Undrafted, 2010 Fuerza Regia NBA Summer
Luis Colon 3, Graduated Undrafted, 2010 Vaqueros de Bayamón International
Jacob Pullen 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2011 Afyonkarahisar Belediyespor NBA
Curtis Kelly 2, Graduated Undrafted, 2011 Magnolia Hotshots International
Jamar Samuels 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2012 SCM Craiova International
Dominique Sutton 3, Transferred Undrafted, 2012 Aquila Basket Trento NBA G League
Ron Anderson 2, Transferred Undrafted, 2012 Saint-Chamond Basket NBA G League
Jordan Henriquez 3, Coach Change Undrafted, 2013 Westchester Knicks NBA G League
Martavious Irving 3, Coach Change Undrafted, 2013 Pelita Jaya Energi Mega Persada International
Rodney McGruder 3, Coach Change Undrafted, 2013 Miami Heat NBA
Freddy Asprilla 1, Transferred Undrafted, 2013 Caciques de Humacao International
Juevol Myles 1, Transferred Undrafted, 2013 Nitra (Slovakia) International
Wally Judge 2, Transferred Undrafted, 2014 Tampereen Pyrintö (basketball) International
Nick Russell 2, Transferred Undrafted, 2014 BCM U Pitești International
Shane Southwell 2, Coach Change Undrafted, 2014 Winterthur International
Thomas Gipson 1, Coach Change Undrafted, 2015 Kouvot International
Nino Williams 2, Coach Change Undrafted, 2015 KK Škofja Loka International
Ángel Rodríguez 1, Coach Change Undrafted, 2016 Maccabi Haifa B.C. NBA Summer
Adrian Diaz 1, Coach Change Undrafted, 2016 CSS Bega Timisoara International
South Carolina
Lakeem Jackson 1, Graduated Undrafted, 2013 ETB Wohnbau Baskets International
RJ Slawson 1, Transferred Undrafted, 2014 FC Schalke International
Tyrone Johnson 2, Graduated Undrafted, 2015 KK Borac Čačak NBA G League
Michael Carrera 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2016 Oklahoma City Blue NBA G League
Laimonas Chatkevicius 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2016 BC Neptūnas International
Mindaugas Kačinas 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2016 BC Neptūnas International
Sindarius Thornwell 4, Graduated 48th, Milwaukee Bucks, 2017 NBA Draft Cleveland Cavaliers NBA
P. J. Dozier 2, Left early Undrafted, 2017 Boston Celtics NBA
Duane Notice 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2017 Raptors 905 NBA G League
Frank Booker Jr. 1, Graduated Undrafted, 2018 ALM Évreux Basket International
Chris Silva 4, Graduated Undrafted, 2019 Miami Heat NBA

That's another issue entirely.

I'm simply asking about making the tournament as an expectation and asking for support on why that is reasonable based on our history.

 

[GamecockinHouston]

Drew is a good example, though his go of it is likely a bit easier. Anyone who does it here will have to do it in the VERY long shadow of UNC and Duke.

Easier? He took over after a player killed his teammate!

 

[JDishnell]

Easier? He took over after a player killed his teammate!

Well, that's certainly sad and tragic. But it's not really connected to program success.

 

[usc01#]

I fail to understand why this has to be an either / or question on the past.
FM should be judged on a yearly performance, just like the overwhelming majority of the
work force. If an employee continues to miss their agreed to goals, then changes are warranted. This should not be a complicated issue.

It’s just a hypothetical question that interested me...I agree with everything you say in your post. I just find it funny that a lot of fans on this board always talk about the 1 NCAA Tournament bid in 7 years without failing to mention that the 1 bid was a tournament experience that ended up in the Final Four with a semifinal loss by 4 points and a final national ranking of #5. (Name the men’s basketball coaches in the all time history of our program that ended up with that finish—I’ll make it easy for you—Frank Martin).

It’d be one thing if that 1 appearance in 7 years ended in a “one in done”—but it didn’t. Because of that Martin has received a lot longer leash. This season isn’t over just yet; and who knows what will happen in regards to the NCAA Tournament but I’m pretty sure Frank Martin will be back next year. (regardless of what transpires over the next few weeks—barring a total collapse—losing the remainder of the games). With that being said; as an alum of this great University I wish we made that tournament every year. But that trip I took with my buddies to Phoenix was PHENOMENAL.

 

[GamecockinHouston]

Well, that's certainly sad and tragic. But it's not really connected to program success.

Go look into the program. I posted additional information in another thread. The murder could have killed the program, they were left for dead, no pun intended, they limited themselves to 7 scholarship players for 2 years. A program with ONE NCAA appearance between 1950 and when the scandal broke out. It doesn't get much worse than that. Now look at them 8 NCAAs since Drew took over, about to be 9 in 17 seasons, that's boarder line miracle work.

 

[JDishnell]

Go look into the program. I posted additional information in another thread. The murder could have killed the program, they were left for dead, no pun intended, they limited themselves to 7 scholarship players for 2 years. A program with ONE NCAA appearance between 1950 and when the scandal broke out. It doesn't get much worse than that. Now look at them 8 NCAAs since Drew took over, about to be 9 in 17 seasons, that's boarder line miracle work.

No doubt. He's a fantastic coach. I'd take him here in a heartbeat.

But you have to ask, we've had some coaches with pretty good track records come here...Fogler, Odom and now Martin. They've all fizzled. Why?

Dave Odom took Wake Forest to 8 NCAAT in 12 seasons...out of the ACC no less. Here it was 1 trip in 7 seasons.

Between Wichita State and Vandy, Fogler made 4 NCAAT trips in 7 seasons. Here it was 2 trips in 8 seasons.

At K-State Frank Martin made 4 NCAAT trips in 5 seasons. Here it has been 1 trip in 8 seasons.

3 coaches, each with a strong track record of making the tournament came here and couldn't get it done. What's the common denominator? It's like that person who blames all their failures on other people.

 

[Gamecock Lifer]

I think so. If you're not striving for excellence it sets a bad example for the student athletes. If you're content to not be in the top 20% of Baketball teams, then why be a coach? We want to improve these young men's lives, but you can't send the message that OK is good enough. It's perfectly fair to judge a coach on the overall performance of his teams. I'd settle for once every 2 years, or 2 of every 3. I think that should be the minimum standard, personally. We should be competing with the money we're paying the coach and investing in the facilities. Otherwise it's just window dressing on a run-down doublewide.

we are over spending for coaches and UNDER spending on recruiting which if you look at it, the amount teams spend on recruiting in FB and MBB seem to have the most direct correlation to consistently having good recruiting CLASSES which- more so than any one recruit’s ranking- seems to be a good indicator of success on the court/ field. I put less weight on any one kid’s ranking being a 3, 4, or 5* is some made up criteria that has little bearing on how good one specific person may be.. With attrition and simply misses in recruiting predictions, injuries... The chance of one guy paying off big and being a difference maker are slim but when your entire CLASSES are ranking high, you have a lot more room for error and are at a significant advantage... So- my point is simply, we need to recruit at a higher level in MBB especially and while some of that is simply on the coach and his ability to inspire and recruit a lot of it seems directly tied to the amount the school invests in recruiting. Unfortunately to really succeed in MBB you have to attract top talent which is virtually impossible in the current state of the sport unless:
1- you are willing to cheat! Yep. It is 100% true, not some cop out excuse- all the BS we THOUGHT was going on behind the scenes- paying players, back office deals with shoe and apparel companies.. ALL of it happens and unless you are part of it, you will never attract the best basketball players. Additionally, if you DO cheat even if your HEAD COACH IS CAUGHT ON A RECORDED LINE TALKING ABOUT PAYING PLAYERS, or if your school is letting athletes attend fake classes... the NCAA does absolutely nothing to you. So beyond the trappings of moral dignity... Why would any team serious about winning not go ahead and do what is needed to pit themselves on even footing with the toughest competition? Even when your program TRIES to do things right from the too down you can easily get involved in these situations and still receive a notice of allegations, as evidenced by the notice we just received which is meaningless BS that never affected a single game we played or recruit we landed.
And 2: you spend the money necessary to extend your recruiting reach as far and wide as possible... Which we are really not quite doing... we spend a lot but not nearly as much as the elite.

finally, 3- you really need a coach who is friendly to and accommodative of the egos of these top recruits. IOW- a coach who will play a fast paced high flying offensive style more similar to the NBA. Think about Wade at LSU or Cal with KY... Sure, a grinding physical defense is a weapon that can help you win games and that is what our coach focuses on... but kids want to be on sports center finishing big dunks and knocking down 30 points a night.. you don’t get on top 10 by forcing the opponent to expire their shot clock on a big possession by playing smothering D.

So, all of this means that as long as Frank is our coach we will not win at the highest levels because he obviously is not a cheater, and he is not going to suddenly change his strategy and coach to what attracts the best talent. The only step we really can take is to give him more financial resources to spend on the recruiting trail but as long as he is not “playing the behind the scenes game” that our competition is (case in point the team that just destroyed us in a crucial game this weekend), we will not compete with the big boys.

 

[GamecockinHouston]

Odom had four 20 win seasons here, was also 59 when he took over. A bit on the older side.
Folger's success at Wichita was built off the success of a really good coach before him, much like Martin at K State. Huggins, though only there a year, set Martin up for success. But yes we can go back to the history excuse, because it's the Gamecock Way now.