I well remember how bad the team was in 2015 especially after their coach walked out on them in the middle of the season. That doesn’t change the fact that there was talent on that team.
It sickens me when I realize Muschamp ran our program so far into the ground it's going to take
- Thread starter Freddie.B.Cocky
- Start date
I'm genuinely curious how you would compare the returning talent for 2016 vs 2021
QB: Doty or Orth Adv: 2021
RB: Kevin Harris/Marshawn Lloyd vs David Williams/AJ Turner Adv: 2021
WR: Deebo vs No one Adv 2016, but both were terrible outside of one player
TE: Hurst vs Muse Adv 2016
OL: Adv 2021, I think the success in the run game shows that
DL: Adv 2021, literally two five star lineman
LB: Adv 2016
DB: Adv 2016, but a lot of that is Beamer not being able to retain any of the talented transfers.
Where do you see the 2016 being significantly better?
QB - Doty may be more talented but he was coached by Bobo after being worked at WR. At this point he’s a completely unknown with 4 games worth of experience. I’m hopeful he will be successful but I don’t know what last year did to/for him.
RB - Williams was drafted to the NFL. Probably should have been our first sign that Muschamp struggled to identify talent. Lloyd is an unknown. He was highly recruited but that doesn’t make success plus the injury makes him a question mark.
WR - Edwards was already coming so it’s good Muschamp held onto him. I still think this is a spot we’re going to see some surprises from next year from guys getting actual coaching.
TE - Hurst easy.
OL - May be more talent now but it’s poorly coached. Part of the success with the running game was based on the struggles on the oline. The counters worked because the defenders were so far on the back field they couldn’t react to the run.
DL - Same as Oline. In 2016 there was one guy who hard nearly as many sacks as the whole line this year.
Agreed for LB and DB but really Beamer could do nothing about the DBs. They guys going to the draft we’re going and Sanders was going as well.
I agree that there is talent here now but it has been so poorly coached that it’s like starting from scratch. We didn’t have a single position where guys ever showed any ability to develop or grow during their time here. Overcoming bad coaching can be a harder fix.
You are also looking at it in a binary, even where 2021 has the advantage in the talent it’s not superbly better
however where 2016 wins is that the WR room is MUCH better and the DB and LBs are MUCH better
however where 2016 wins is that the WR room is MUCH better and the DB and LBs are MUCH better
You guys were trying to argue the 2016 returning roster was significantly better than what Muschamp left for 21. Now you’re moving the goalposts to 21 had more talent but isn’t superbly better?
The only difference was literally one player at WR. And if Beamer could convince shi to come back that would be nullified.
Also not seeing a compelling argument for LB. Skai Moore didn’t play in 2016 so that group was much worse that people are remembering
We were definitely better at DB at 2016 but it would be closer if Beamer held onto Robinson and Dixon.
Your statement is just not true IMO
Yes he did not do a good job as our head coach
We do have talent and through the transfer portal , good recruiting , and good coaching we can easily be atleast “ middle of pack” soon . Not in few years .
Huge weaknesses at 2 positions makes a big difference.
'16 we had Hurst, Debo, and Bryan Edwards. There is no comp even close to that on the current roster.
DBs are about the same. There is a reason why our defense got boat raced this past season.
And a reason why Shane is signing skill position transfers.
No. It’s all a part of the comparison. If you have one position with 3 guys who are better and another position group with 1 guy who is better that makes a difference. You can be better without it being significant.
There’s a surprising amount of talent on this team that was not reflected in last years record. I
i think there more to it than that. It’s been said part of Muschamp culture was individualistic, get to the next level-Not a lot of team first stuff. Especially with all the DB room which safeties were Muschamps. I’m trying to think over who left, outside of Jammie and Shilo, are there any real departures that hurt?
Unpopular view: We have a lot of talent on this team. Doty, Harris, Lloyd, Oline, Kingley, Burch, Pickens, Sandidge, Sterling, Johnson, Kaba, Cam Smith, Roderick. Brooks flashed, Josh Vann was great in HS flashed before coaching got him in college. Otre Smith flashed. Powers and Caldwell were freshman but very talented. Joyner is athletic. Just to name a few but all these guys have a lot of potential and under a good staff that can develop could really make some noise. I think Muschamps defense scheme was too complicated, and the philosophy (bend don’t break) left players on the field too long, resulting in injury-leaving young players to play in a complicated defense.
“the Ray Goff era”?.............classic dawg bumper sticker from those days,...........”If u can’t beat the poultry, go back to Moultrie”.
I agree there is raw talent but it is underdeveloped and undercoached and there is no guarantee that can be undone.
You can’t say “if Beamer held on” because it’s evident that Muschamp and crew literally pushed players out the door.
DB: Lamons, Fenton, Montac - vs ?
LB: BAW, Skai, TJ Holloman v Greene and Stanley
WR/TE: Deebo, Edwards, Hurst, Markaway, Pollard, Crosby vs O. smith, Vann and muse?
Dixon, easily our second best DB behind Horn. He is now at Penn State.
With the two you named, that is 3 of our starting 4 DBs.....that should never happen.
Edwards committed after Muschamp was hired....not before. Was his first or second commitment.
He was a Spurrier commit. Muschamp had to rerecruit him because he decommitted and looked at Clemson.
He didn't commit to Spurrier at any point in time. He was waiting to see if Clemson was going to give him the chance to play WR. If they would have, he'd be there.....PERIOD.
You can't include Skai, because he didn't play in 2016. Skai could have transferred the year he sat out medically, but Muschamp got him to buy in. You also have to exclude Edwards and Pollard as they were Muschamp recruits.
We didn't follow our common sense when we hired him after he was a failure at UF. If you can't win at UF you sure can't win here. A lot of other people said the same thing. What was Ray thinking? I know he couldn't have gotten a big name coach to come here but he should have went with a young and up and coming coach. He couldn't win at UF and somehow we expected Muschamp to win here.
Sure. Same as I gave the Holtz for Kenny McKinley.
I’ve never knocked Muschamp’s recruiting just his coaching. He recruited on the same level as Spurrier but either Muschamp only finds the overrated guys or he and his staff never had any ability to make guys better.
I hate comparing guys from different teams, because of all of the variables involved. That said...
Orth was a gamer, but there was no excuse for the previous staff to have left us so short at QB. He did a very credible job after being put in a tough situation. The guy fought hard, played hard, gave it everything he had, and most importantly....didn't quit when he was replaced. I always admired the guy for stepping up and elevating his game.
Williams wasn't a "sign that Muschamp struggled to identify talent". He simply wasn't a fit for our offense (or the offense under Spurrier) My opinion back then (on CT) was that he didn't have the vision and cutting ability needed for ZR blocking, he was more fitting for an I formation type offense where you just follow your blocks.
DW was a good athlete, had the prototypical size for a NFL RB, just didn't have the vision and cutting ability needed for ZR blocking. He struggled here, did better at Arkansas under a more traditional running scheme, and then didn't really find a fit in the NFL.
2016 team had some talent. The problem was, most of the talent was spread amongst a few players, then once the talent level started dropping, it dropped fast. There was very little quality depth to work with. I remember one offensive series we had 5 walkons on the field at the same time.
It was good for Doty to get some experience in a free year. Is he the answer for next season? I'm not sure. If he is, he has a lot of work to do.
Yeah- I keep going back to the Belk Bowl as a very clear divide of when the team just didn't show up and didn't give a d#mn....from there on out it has been disastrous. Yes....was a bad hire, even with them feeling pressure to hire and how it looked to get passed over repeatedly. I am pretty sure that drove how we arrived at getting our current staff.
Disagree about the East. While it's not the West (but what in college football history ever has been?)...even in the East's worst year it's hard to finish top 4. It LOOKS like the next 2-3 years will be the easiest it's ever been to attempt that top 4 finish with the issues/hopeful sanctions and one coaching change at UF, UT, UGA.....BUT I still don't see how we can win more than 2 games in a year for the next year or two...and will not be in a bowl game despite everybody getting to go to bowl games these days.
Agree. This is what I see, saw and remember. I would disagree with the QB though. I REALLY love Doty's skillset, but I'm not sure what offense we will have him in and what it will allow him to do (will it constrict him, or emphasize him??). The only clear cut advantage is RB for 2021.
Yes....our retainage rate is horrible. It's even worse when consider the "exchange ratio" which is the talent we're losing vs. what we have coming in.
90% of these guys play in similar/ "sophisticated" defenses in HS for 3-4 years. That goes for many offenses too. Mostly all of them come from 3a to 6a schools, most come from winning programs in HS...so they're familiar with the responsibilities and playing against big talent in big games and with lots of quick reads/adjustments at a young age. That is the game these days....on defense in order to combat spread, run spread and all the pass schemes that exist everywhere they showed the ability to play mentally and physically in these defenses before signing to play D1.
If Beamer is the right hire, I thinnk that 8-4 should take 4 years to achieve and then sustain that level of success with some outlier years of even better reocrds for years to come.
Shocker how right I was about Muschamp leaving Beamer more talent than any coach had left the next coach in our history.
3 of the 4 drafted this year were not coached by WM. So WM left 1 draft pick 3 years later.
And we went 5-7. So the more a player was coached by Beamer the worse we’ve performed 😳
Just ask'n'... anyone predicting better than 5-7 this season or next??? (Using the word "IF" disqualifies any response).
We won’t make a bowl game, if that’s what you’re asking….
Nope. Those two wins to end the '22 season were big program wins which got Shane a nice contract. But as usual with Carolina football what appears to be a blessing can many times really be a curse.
Last edited:
