OT: College Tuition Cost

[Ward Jr]

Another bubble primed to blow soon. You can get an equal or better education online without the "enlightened" spin of reality via the Ivory Tower Club.

The college experience itself is special and unique, but it's incredibly overpriced at this point.

Specialized Training > Credentialism.

 

[cocks rule]

Another bubble primed to blow soon. You can get an equal or better education online without the "enlightened" spin of reality via the Ivory Tower Club.

The college experience itself is special and unique, but it's incredibly overpriced at this point.

Specialized Training > Credentialism.

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Trade schools actually give you a skill for your hard earned money. The college experience can be very damaging to many people not to mention bury you in debt for decades to come.

 

[DeeDave]

As many state governments have cut back on funding higher education (some shifting the burden of funding to gimmicks like lotteries), a number of schools have raised tuition to compete with other schools.

There are also a number of schools that have done a good job of holding the line on tuition increases.

I have a senior in college and a freshman starting college.

I have found that while 4 year college is expensive, it's within reasonable reach of many people with proper planning. My senior received the life scholarship and the life scholarship enhancement (additional $2,500 earned after Freshman year) for STEM majors. I am also glad I started a 529 account 20 years ago when my oldest was born.

Still, it's not cheap and I've got to pay for 2 more semesters which should be quite a few thousand dollars.

While my college senior went straight to USC, my freshman is going to a tech school to take university transfer classes and then transfer to USC. He wanted to do that because he felt it was better to get those classes out of the way for the lowest amount possible. The bill for the 1st semester - got it last week - is $247 (minus any parking fees, books).

 

[The Doctors Back]

As many state governments have cut back on funding higher education (some shifting the burden of funding to gimmicks like lotteries), a number of schools have raised tuition to compete with other schools.

There are also a number of schools that have done a good job of holding the line on tuition increases.

I have a senior in college and a freshman starting college.

I have found that while 4 year college is expensive, it's within reasonable reach of many people with proper planning. My senior received the life scholarship and the life scholarship enhancement (additional $2,500 earned after Freshman year) for STEM majors. I am also glad I started a 529 account 20 years ago when my oldest was born.

Still, it's not cheap and I've got to pay for 2 more semesters which should be quite a few thousand dollars.

While my college senior went straight to USC, my freshman is going to a tech school to take university transfer classes and then transfer to USC. He wanted to do that because he felt it was better to get those classes out of the way for the lowest amount possible. The bill for the 1st semester - got it last week - is $247 (minus any parking fees, books).

I did the math awhile back regarding the SC “education” lottery. If you took the price of college in-state tuition and increased it at the same rate as inflation, you would have to qualify for the Palmetto Fellow Scholarship (the elite of the lottery scholarships) just to get the price of your tuition back to where it would have been before the scholarships. It was simply a gimmick that allows the legislature to re-route the money they were spending on education to other pet projects. The education lottery is a joke. I for one didn’t vote for it because I knew it would be a scam.

 

[DeeDave]

I did the math awhile back regarding the SC “education” lottery. If you took the price of college in-state tuition and increased it at the same rate as inflation, you would have to qualify for the Palmetto Fellow Scholarship (the elite of the lottery scholarships) just to get the price of your tuition back to where it would have been before the scholarships. It was simply a gimmick that allows the legislature to re-route the money they were spending on education to other pet projects. The education lottery is a joke. I for one didn’t vote for it because I knew it would be a scam.

I agree with you. I also didn't vote for it for the same reason.

It was a cost shifting tool and nothing else.

 

[ToddFlanders]

I think schools are going to need to change their tuition models. The fact is that all degrees are not worth the same, even when they come from the same schools. Why should an education degree from USC cost the same as an engineering degree from USC? The people that earn those degrees certainly won't make the same amount when they graduate. But the cost of tuition should more accurately reflect the job that its preparing you for.

 

[Ward Jr]

I did the math awhile back regarding the SC “education” lottery. If you took the price of college in-state tuition and increased it at the same rate as inflation, you would have to qualify for the Palmetto Fellow Scholarship (the elite of the lottery scholarships) just to get the price of your tuition back to where it would have been before the scholarships. It was simply a gimmick that allows the legislature to re-route the money they were spending on education to other pet projects. The education lottery is a joke. I for one didn’t vote for it because I knew it would be a scam.

Agree. It was sad seeing people lined up in groves to purchase reams of lottery tickets during it's run up last week..... especially given what's happening in the economy.

 

[DeeDave]

I think schools are going to need to change their tuition models. The fact is that all degrees are not worth the same, even when they come from the same schools. Why should an education degree from USC cost the same as an engineering degree from USC? The people that earn those degrees certainly won't make the same amount when they graduate. But the cost of tuition should more accurately reflect the job that its preparing you for.

Good post.

I really hope more students will consider tech schools out of high school- even if only to get their basic requirements out of the way. It's much cheaper, it can leave the 4 year colleges to focus on the higher level courses specific to the major, and they could actually cut some of their overhead because they don't have so many students trying to do their basic courses.


A number of my son's friends in his graduation class are taking their university transfer classes at tech starting in August.

We honor our high school graduates every year at church in May and this year out of about 10 students, at least 7 of them were going to a technical college to either enter a specific study program or take university transfer classes- the most students I ever remember going that route.

 

[cocks rule]

I did the math awhile back regarding the SC “education” lottery. If you took the price of college in-state tuition and increased it at the same rate as inflation, you would have to qualify for the Palmetto Fellow Scholarship (the elite of the lottery scholarships) just to get the price of your tuition back to where it would have been before the scholarships. It was simply a gimmick that allows the legislature to re-route the money they were spending on education to other pet projects. The education lottery is a joke. I for one didn’t vote for it because I knew it would be a scam.

We’ll said! It’s a shell game that always ends up in their personal pockets.

 

[cocks rule]

Agree. It was sad seeing people lined up in groves to purchase reams of lottery tickets during it's run up last week..... especially given what's happening in the economy.

Sad indeed. The bad thing is that was rent and food money for a lot of those folks.

 

[bayrooster]

I think schools are going to need to change their tuition models. The fact is that all degrees are not worth the same, even when they come from the same schools. Why should an education degree from USC cost the same as an engineering degree from USC? The people that earn those degrees certainly won't make the same amount when they graduate. But the cost of tuition should more accurately reflect the job that its preparing you for.

People will have a hard time convincing education professors and instructors that they should be paid significantly less than those who teach engineering curricula, yet wouldn't that need to happen for the tuition costs for an education degree to become significantly less?

 

[DeeDave]

Specialized Training > Credentialism.

In a number of cases, specialized training is better and should be the focus. But in other professions, the degree is non-negotiable if one wants to pursue management level positions and/or specific professional certifications.

 

[DeeDave]

People will have a hard time convincing education professors and instructors that they should be paid significantly less than those who teach engineering curricula, yet wouldn't that need to happen for the tuition costs for an education degree to become comparatively less?

Good point.


I will say at USC engineering school students pay an extra $1,500 a semester on top of tuition. My senior is in the engineering school as a computer science student and we pay that extra fee each semester.

I don't think education major students pay that fee.

 

[cocks rule]

People will have a hard time convincing education professors and instructors that they should be paid significantly less than those who teach engineering curricula, yet wouldn't that need to happen for the tuition costs for an education degree to become significantly less?

They are all overpaid, cut all the salaries and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[DeeDave]

They are all overpaid, cut all the salaries and let the chips fall where they may.

How do you know they are "overpaid?" Is there some statistic you are looking at or some comparison?

There are some 3,000 students of one type or another at USC in the education program. If you start getting rid of professors in the program because you don't pay them fair market salaries, students don't come.

When students don't come, tuition rises for the remaining students and/or thousands of students will decide to attend other colleges or just avoid the program.

South Carolina already has a deficit of qualified teachers. Adding to the deficit is not a solution.

Efforts to attract, retain classroom teachers key to South Carolina's success

Like much of the rest of the United States, South Carolina enters 2022 with an acute and expanding teacher recruitment and retention problem. Exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic, yet existing long before it, fewer college-bound high school graduates are interested in education careers, and more...

sc.edu

 

[cocks rule]

How do you know they are "overpaid?" Is there some statistic you are looking at or some comparison?

There are some 3,000 students at USC in the education program. If you start getting rid of professors in the program because you don't pay them fair market salaries, students don't come.

When students don't come, tuition rises for the remaining students and/or thousands of students will decide to attend other colleges.

It doesn’t matter what they do. Professors are there for the coeds and the party. Most Kids are there for the same. The few smart kids get their requirements met for their professions and get to work. It’ll all shake out no mater what you do. The really smart kids hit the ground running knowing their most productive years are over around age 25 and never set foot in these institutions. They are too busy breaking ground with their new ideas, businesses etc.

 

[Ward Jr]

It doesn’t matter what they do. Professors are there for the coeds and the party. Most Kids are there for the same. The few smart kids get their requirements met for their professions and get to work. It’ll all shake out no mater what you do. The really smart kids hit the ground running knowing their most productive years are over around age 25 and never set foot in these institutions. They are too busy breaking ground with their new ideas, businesses etc.

Totally agree. Look at Silicon Valley. They previously plucked the best and brightest from Stanford and Cal. Now they would far prefer the promising 18-year-old and train them from the ground up.

It's a win-win as the student isn't burdened with 300-500k+ in debt and the company is not paying them 500k+ when they first arrive, mostly based on their degree certification.

 

[DeeDave]

Professors are there for the coeds and the party.

The really smart kids hit the ground running knowing their most productive years are over around age 25 and never set foot in these institutions. They are too busy breaking ground with their new ideas, businesses etc.

so you had no statistic- just your opinion. Ok. Fair enough.

something tells me you've never been on a college campus as a student though. That certainly wasn't my experience - that my professors just were there for the coeds. Such an allegation sounds ludicrous.

"The really smart kids" - if you are speaking of the rarest of the rare people that engage in technological or computer fields that never attend college and make millions, this is the tiniest sliver of the population. Even then, 99.9% of them don't make most of their money in the early part of their careers.

I retired the first time when I was 43. I never needed to work again. But I went to college and made most of my money starting around age 35. Even in my line of work which was incredibly financially rewarding, I didn't know anyone personally that made all their money before the age of 25. In fact, it was the opposite. They usually made the least amount.

 

[DeeDave]

Totally agree. Look at Silicon Valley. They previously plucked the best and brightest from Stanford and Cal. Now they would far prefer the promising 18-year-old and train them from the ground up.

It's a win-win as the student isn't burdened with 300-500k+ in debt and the company is not paying them 500k+ when they first arrive, mostly based on their degree certification.

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This is .01% of the population. This is not a strategy for the public.

Food for thought from https://www.masterstudies.com/article/what-student-entrepreneurs-can-learn-from-silicon-valley/

1. Don’t drop out of school

The successes of drop-outs are few and far between -- outliers in a highly competitive, highly selective field.

The idea that some Silicon Valley startups embraced -- that dropping out is the way to go -- is much overplayed. For every inspirational school-dropout story you hear, there are several other school-dropout stories you do not hear, precisely because they have not had great business success worth telling thousands of people about.

So stay in school.

In 2011, PayPal billionaire Peter Thiel started The Thiel Fellowship, which would pay deserving students $100,000 to drop out of college to start a business.

He wanted to show young entrepreneurs that they did not need school and that most of their coursework was overpriced and unnecessary.

While some of his startups earned high public praise, the fellowship is generally considered to have not worked.

Thiel has since changed his approach.

 

[cocks rule]

Totally agree. Look at Silicon Valley. They previously plucked the best and brightest from Stanford and Cal. Now they would far prefer the promising 18-year-old and train them from the ground up.

It's a win-win as the student isn't burdened with 300-500k+ in debt and the company is not paying them 500k+ when they first arrive, mostly based on their degree certification.

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Bingo. Get the brightest before the “educators” ruin them. Bottom line is those who can do, those who can’t “teach”

 

[cocks rule]

so you had no statistic- just your opinion. Ok. Fair enough.

something tells me you've never been on a college campus as a student though. That certainly wasn't my experience - that my professors just were there for the coeds. Such an allegation sounds ludicrous.

"The really smart kids" - if you are speaking of the rarest of the rare people that engage in technological or computer fields that never attend college and make millions, this is the tiniest sliver of the population. Even then, 99.9% of them don't make most of their money in the early part of their careers.

I retired the first time when I was 43. I never needed to work again. But I went to college and made most of my money starting around age 35. Even in my line of work which was incredibly financially rewarding, I didn't know anyone personally that made all their money before the age of 25. In fact, it was the opposite. They usually made the least amount.

Statistics are a total waste of time. You can get a statistic to prove both sides of any argument.

just to clarify. You retired at 43 then went to school? Is this correct?

 

[cocks rule]

Totally agree. Look at Silicon Valley. They previously plucked the best and brightest from Stanford and Cal. Now they would far prefer the promising 18-year-old and train them from the ground up.

It's a win-win as the student isn't burdened with 300-500k+ in debt and the company is not paying them 500k+ when they first arrive, mostly based on their degree certification.

View embedded media

The other problem is so many kids just go to college because parents pressure them. They have no desire and no drive but HEY! it’s 4 more years of total freedom and fun so why not. Some finish, some drop out and most never use the degree that cost somebody way too much money.

 

[cocks rule]

Another bubble primed to blow soon. You can get an equal or better education online without the "enlightened" spin of reality via the Ivory Tower Club.

The college experience itself is special and unique, but it's incredibly overpriced at this point.

Specialized Training > Credentialism.

View embedded media

Two years in the military at age 18. This should be Mandatory and would help our kids more than anything. You could opt out for a million.

 

[bucketdad]

The other problem is so many kids just go to college because parents pressure them. They have no desire and no drive but HEY! it’s 4 more years of total freedom and fun so why not. Some finish, some drop out and most never use the degree that cost somebody way too much money.

College dropout has never looked as good on a resume as it does now.

 

[Ward Jr]

This is .01% of the population. This is not a strategy for the public.

Food for thought from https://www.masterstudies.com/article/what-student-entrepreneurs-can-learn-from-silicon-valley/

1. Don’t drop out of school

The successes of drop-outs are few and far between -- outliers in a highly competitive, highly selective field.

The idea that some Silicon Valley startups embraced -- that dropping out is the way to go -- is much overplayed. For every inspirational school-dropout story you hear, there are several other school-dropout stories you do not hear, precisely because they have not had great business success worth telling thousands of people about.

So stay in school.

In 2011, PayPal billionaire Peter Thiel started The Thiel Fellowship, which would pay deserving students $100,000 to drop out of college to start a business.

He wanted to show young entrepreneurs that they did not need school and that most of their coursework was overpriced and unnecessary.

While some of his startups earned high public praise, the fellowship is generally considered to have not worked.

Thiel has since changed his approach.

You're citing from years ago though. Online education has streamlined in the last few years. Imagine if an MD had more time learning about the most important pieces of health - like nutrition and sleep {literally zero training} versus having to take intro college courses that have nothing to do with their field?

Musk and Bezos alone employ more people than any other company on earth and both of them have the same viewpoint about college at this point.

IMO, a University/College holds social value and can be useful in certain professions, but the price tag is waaay off at this point. Flanders has a good point about valuing based on professions. I just don't know how they unwind their bloated model. It's almost like it has to fail completely before it gets streamlined.

I've seen the same in the medical field. Researchers discover far better ways to treat certain chronic conditions. However, they can't come up with a way for these new discoveries to satisfy shareholder interest - so they push aside more favorable treatment paths and continue practicing antiquated medicine. This was particularly true with regard to mapping the genome and stem cell therapy. You have to go overseas to get these state-of-the-art therapies as our hospital systems can't figure out a way to price cancer, heart or liver patient management. The traditional route can net $500k-1mil+ per patient over the course. You can't bilk health insurance providers that amount of money for a single (or short series) of procedures. Yet another reason why medicine for profit is not ideal - encouraging management over cures.

 

[DeeDave]

Statistics are a total waste of time. You can get a statistic to prove both sides of any argument.

just to clarify. You retired at 43 then went to school? Is this correct?

you can't get a statistic to prove both sides of any argument.

Statistics reveal that commercial airplanes almost never crash. There is no statistic that reveals that commercial airplanes almost always crash.

No, graduated college in my early 20s.

 

[DeeDave]

The other problem is so many kids just go to college because parents pressure them. They have no desire and no drive but HEY! it’s 4 more years of total freedom and fun so why not. Some finish, some drop out and most never use the degree that cost somebody way too much money.

Now this is true in a number of cases.

 

[DeeDave]

Two years in the military at age 18. This should be Mandatory and would help our kids more than anything. You could opt out for a million.

Military is one option but I wouldn't force it that way. The last thing the military needs is a lot of folks that really do not want to be there at all.

But service in something like AmeriCorps or similar groups would also be a positive.

 

[DeeDave]

College dropout has never looked as good on a resume as it does now.

You folks must work in a different industry than most. LOL

I think someone that never went to college would look better than a college dropout. I mean if you don't finish what you start, that's pretty revealing to an employer.

 

[DeeDave]

Musk and Bezos alone employ more people than any other company on earth and both of them have the same viewpoint about college at this point.

and both have companies that are still hiring a majority of their higher paying jobs from college graduates.

They both talk a big game but most of their companies are hiring the folks they've always hired.

and even though they are huge companies, it's still a tiny fraction of the overall job market.

 

[DeeDave]

This was particularly true with regard to mapping the genome and stem cell therapy. You have to go overseas to get these state-of-the-art therapies as our hospital systems can't figure out a way to price cancer, heart or liver patient management. The traditional route can net $500k-1mil+ per patient over the course. You can't bilk health insurance providers that amount of money for a single (or short series) of procedures. Yet another reason why medicine for profit is not ideal - encouraging management over cures.

This was true in some cases.

A man at my church went to South Korea for stem cell therapy for prostate cancer. He still died but I think he did live a bit longer than he would have.

But of course our regulations are also partly to blame - for some good reasons- and some bad ones.

 

[DeeDave]

A reminder- this is from 2022

Young workers with college degrees now out-earn their high-school-graduate counterparts by a record-high $22,000 per year.

According to new data from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, the median annual wage for a full-time worker ages 22 to 27 with a high school diploma is $30,000. For a full-time worker with a bachelor's degree, it's $52,000.

The difference marks a pay gap of $22,000 — the highest on record with the New York Fed, which tracks earnings going back to 1990.

The findings are part of the new report on recent college graduates.

The Labor Market for Recent College Graduates - FEDERAL RESERVE BANK of NEW YORK

New York Fed economists Jaison Abel and Richard Deitz track data on the job prospects, wages, unemployment, and underemployment of new U.S. college graduates. Trends for young workers holding only a high school diploma provide a comparison

www.newyorkfed.org

 

[bucketdad]

A reminder- this is from 2022

Young workers with college degrees now out-earn their high-school-graduate counterparts by a record-high $22,000 per year.

According to new data from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, the median annual wage for a full-time worker ages 22 to 27 with a high school diploma is $30,000. For a full-time worker with a bachelor's degree, it's $52,000.

The difference marks a pay gap of $22,000 — the highest on record with the New York Fed, which tracks earnings going back to 1990.

The findings are part of the new report on recent college graduates.

The Labor Market for Recent College Graduates - FEDERAL RESERVE BANK of NEW YORK

New York Fed economists Jaison Abel and Richard Deitz track data on the job prospects, wages, unemployment, and underemployment of new U.S. college graduates. Trends for young workers holding only a high school diploma provide a comparison

www.newyorkfed.org

I can buy that. Funny thing about averages, they are for the average. The key bucking that trend is dont be one. Most employers I know want exceptional people and will pay for them. Be one and have something to offer or fall in line with the average.

 

[Neanderthal]

An acquaintance of mine from years ago dropped out of A. L. Brown High School in the 10th grade and became a multi-millionaire, not by luck but by skill and acquired on-the-job knowledge. If you have a special skill, hone it, and you can make it. Without college. College ain’t what it use to be. Just look at some of the stuff they offer now and you will see it is ridiculous and worthless.

 

[cocks rule]

You folks must work in a different industry than most. LOL

I think someone that never went to college would look better than a college dropout. I mean if you don't finish what you start, that's pretty revealing to an employer.

Or it shows some people are smart enough to cut their losses after finding out first hand that college is a scam and a total waste of time and money for the majority.

 

[cocks rule]

you can't get a statistic to prove both sides of any argument.

Statistics reveal that commercial airplanes almost never crash. There is no statistic that reveals that commercial airplanes almost always crash.

No, graduated college in my early 20s.

Statistics prove that commercial airline crashes are fatal. No other source of transportation has a higher death rate per accident

 

[cocks rule]

you can't get a statistic to prove both sides of any argument.

Statistics reveal that commercial airplanes almost never crash. There is no statistic that reveals that commercial airplanes almost always crash.

No, graduated college in my early 20s.

you can't get a statistic to prove both sides of any argument.

Statistics reveal that commercial airplanes almost never crash. There is no statistic that reveals that commercial airplanes almost always crash.

No, graduated college in my early 20s.

2996 people died in four “commercial” plane crashes in one day. This statistic proves “commercial” planes crash at a high rate on certain days. Much higher than “almost never”

By the way what percentage equals “almost never”. I’ll go out on a limb and say it’s less than 4 in one day.

Like I said statistics can be and unfortunately are used to bs people into a false narrative.

 

[DeeDave]

Or it shows some people are smart enough to cut their losses after finding out first hand that college is a scam and a total waste of time and money for the majority.

I haven't met an employer yet that thought "College is a scam and a total waste of money"

I've met angry individuals that felt that way because of some personal issues they have in their own lives, but I've never had a business tell me they felt that way.

For example, last week I was in Aiken and met with a manufacturing company. I was fortunate enough to meet with their engineering department and sit in on a meeting. The owner gave a presentation and part of his talk was employee turnover and hiring challenges but he didn't mention college was a scam. LOL

That would have been an odd thing to say given the numerous college graduates in the engineering dept, machine shop, and his electrical technician operation.

Plus, college was a TON of fun. I'm not talking about partying. Heck, I don't even drink alcohol. I am talking about just the pure fun of it overall and all that goes into it.

 

[DeeDave]

Statistics prove that commercial airline crashes are fatal. No other source of transportation has a higher death rate per accident

You just proved my point by citing a statistic and refuting your "you can't get a statistic to prove both sides of any argument

Thank you.

 

[DeeDave]

2996 people died in four “commercial” plane crashes in one day. This statistic proves “commercial” planes crash at a high rate on certain days. Much higher than “almost never”

By the way what percentage equals “almost never”. I’ll go out on a limb and say it’s less than 4 in one day.

Like I said statistics can be and unfortunately are used to bs people into a false narrative.

You would have failed a statistics exam- and a college logic class - with that effort.

statistics reveal that commercial airplanes almost never crash. There is no statistic that reveals that commercial airplanes almost always crash.

so it's untrue that you can find a statistic that proves whatever you want

2996 or 22,996 people dying in 4 crashes in one day doesn't disprove the statistic that commercial airplanes almost never crash.