Ad hominem attacks are the refuge of the loser of a debate.
Paying Players - REAL TALK
- Thread starter HBCShaneDarkSide
- Start date
Not an attack. Simply a critique of your implied style of dress.
Let's agree to disagree. We may even know each other. Cheers.
Bruh, you referenced a case involving a 50 year old tax liability for New York University. That implies you wear pleated pants.
Do you wear pleated pants?
They've been out of style for several years, so no. My suits are bespoke style from Dunhill, Burberry, etc..
Most players will never make it to the NFL. According to NCAA statistics, 1.6% make it to the NFL from college. That means that those who receive a scholarship already have a leg up on the rest of society. Out of 19 million students enrolled in college only 2% had a full ride scholarship last year. In a US News article, a prospect father
Mesa Sr. says it was made clear “It’s a job” during the recruiting process and then for maintaining a scholarship. "They're paying for your education. They're paying for your food, room and board and everything else. Something is expected of you. You're going to go out and perform on the football field, but you're also going to be a person of character. You're going to be a good ambassador of the school."
There is your value and payment that 97% of society don’t get because they are good athletes. Bleacher Report in 2012 has an article outlining what a scholarship football receives. The average D1 scholarship is around $43,000 per year. This does not include harder to quantify expenses (health coverage, insurance policies, training staff, tutors and tutoring centers, state of the art facilities compared to other students, clothes, equipment, etc).
Have you heard of the NCAA Student Assistance Fund? In August, 2010, according to the NCAA website, a total of $53,946,000 was sent to Division I conference offices to provide direct benefits to student-athletes or their families with unmet financial needs as determined by conference offices(that was scheduled to increase 13% per year).
Most players get a Pell grant of @ $6,000 per year to be used as they please without having to pay it back (depending on family situations).
How do you quantify the "job interview" that players get for performing 11 or 12 times a year in front of the hiring decision-makers in their chosen profession? A computer science major doesn't get that visibility.
Last but not least, what impact does the student-athlete scholarship have on future earnings? Study after study has proven that even some college education leads to higher wages in life.
The difference in my thought process is I would be willing to let players receive profit sharing from Championship games and bowls (though they should be structured much differently). If you want to add in financial incentives for MVP’s, Heisman, best at your position (ie. Belitnikoff trophy), Academic all- American, All-American, etc.,,
A structure like this would help keep players from opting out if voting for these were after the bowls and championship game. By opting out most are loosing potential long term income because there will come a time for life after football. The average NFL career is 3 years. The average life expectancy is 78 years in the US. So, if you say most go to the NFL at 22 years of age and are out by 25. Average age of retirement is 67. That leaves 42 working years that they will have to work at something other than the NFL.
A scholarship athlete is already given a huge financial investment. Let’s not cheapen it by “paying them”.
Mesa Sr. says it was made clear “It’s a job” during the recruiting process and then for maintaining a scholarship. "They're paying for your education. They're paying for your food, room and board and everything else. Something is expected of you. You're going to go out and perform on the football field, but you're also going to be a person of character. You're going to be a good ambassador of the school."
There is your value and payment that 97% of society don’t get because they are good athletes. Bleacher Report in 2012 has an article outlining what a scholarship football receives. The average D1 scholarship is around $43,000 per year. This does not include harder to quantify expenses (health coverage, insurance policies, training staff, tutors and tutoring centers, state of the art facilities compared to other students, clothes, equipment, etc).
Have you heard of the NCAA Student Assistance Fund? In August, 2010, according to the NCAA website, a total of $53,946,000 was sent to Division I conference offices to provide direct benefits to student-athletes or their families with unmet financial needs as determined by conference offices(that was scheduled to increase 13% per year).
Most players get a Pell grant of @ $6,000 per year to be used as they please without having to pay it back (depending on family situations).
How do you quantify the "job interview" that players get for performing 11 or 12 times a year in front of the hiring decision-makers in their chosen profession? A computer science major doesn't get that visibility.
Last but not least, what impact does the student-athlete scholarship have on future earnings? Study after study has proven that even some college education leads to higher wages in life.
The difference in my thought process is I would be willing to let players receive profit sharing from Championship games and bowls (though they should be structured much differently). If you want to add in financial incentives for MVP’s, Heisman, best at your position (ie. Belitnikoff trophy), Academic all- American, All-American, etc.,,
A structure like this would help keep players from opting out if voting for these were after the bowls and championship game. By opting out most are loosing potential long term income because there will come a time for life after football. The average NFL career is 3 years. The average life expectancy is 78 years in the US. So, if you say most go to the NFL at 22 years of age and are out by 25. Average age of retirement is 67. That leaves 42 working years that they will have to work at something other than the NFL.
A scholarship athlete is already given a huge financial investment. Let’s not cheapen it by “paying them”.
Largely agree with the end of your post. Still, college football at most power five schools has become a revenue and profit generating machine. It's awkward because these not-for-profit institutions are making more than was ever thought possible from sports. Take Carolina's revenue and profit from any year in the last 5. Even a small percentage of that paid out in some fashion to the football players seems to make good sense.
I agree that getting to play college football is a good deal in and of itself but it would be difficult to apply that rule to other areas. Take computer science, as you mentioned. The top tier of those students have insane job opportunities after college graduation. Many also have lucrative opportunities while they are students. Anecdotally, my firm employed a Clemson senior (comp sci major) to the tune of $80k a year, while he was a full time student.
I would say that football and basketball players are unique in that they are by-and-large not able to profit from their main focus while in college.
It's an interesting argument for sure. I think, like anything great in this country, it will take some serious thought leadership to get us to a point where the sport is competitive, lucrative, and equitable across the board.
All the legal and tedious arguments aside - I know what's right regarding this subject will never happen because the money has gotten too big in college football. However what should be: college STUDENT athletes playing for their school. We already have paid athletes. They're called PROFESSIONALS. When there is a practice of paying college football players, that's when my ticket money, etc will stay in my pocket. And I know it's been done for years, illegally, but that doesn't make it right.
Ok, so if you pay them, take away:
Free tuition
Free books and supplies
Free room and board
Free meals
Free clothing (warmup gear, sweats, hoodies, workout clothing etc)
Free athletic coaching
Free academic tutoring
Free access to strength conditioning coaches and nutrition experts
Free access to top notch facilities for strength conditioning (actual equipment)
Free access to top notch facilities for entertainment (higher end student facilities with games, tv's, etc)
Free physical therapy
and the list goes on...
Some don't go pro from college but will have a degree. These student's usually know who they are and major in something meaningful. The others will go pro and 3 years seems like a small investment of time to make millions of dollars.
We just live in a world of over-entitlement. These athletes don't have to play, they can go to school like the rest of us and get a job. It's a simple decision.
Free tuition
Free books and supplies
Free room and board
Free meals
Free clothing (warmup gear, sweats, hoodies, workout clothing etc)
Free athletic coaching
Free academic tutoring
Free access to strength conditioning coaches and nutrition experts
Free access to top notch facilities for strength conditioning (actual equipment)
Free access to top notch facilities for entertainment (higher end student facilities with games, tv's, etc)
Free physical therapy
and the list goes on...
Some don't go pro from college but will have a degree. These student's usually know who they are and major in something meaningful. The others will go pro and 3 years seems like a small investment of time to make millions of dollars.
We just live in a world of over-entitlement. These athletes don't have to play, they can go to school like the rest of us and get a job. It's a simple decision.
A couple of thoughts to kick around on your reply. First, the top tier computer science student gets the jobs after college (with your noted exception). Unless they get an internship, they don’t get the exposure that a prospective college player gets by their games being played on TV. This is true for both NFL players and those who don’t make it to the league.
A thought might be that NFL/NBA/MLB etc.. has to repay college expenses for any athlete drafted. Much like many jobs pay off college debts. Thus ensuring that only the elite leave early or risk loosing their scholarships. I can agree with a one time transfer rule if done before their junior season. Schools should get at least 2 years from their investment into a student athlete. A college education should be the focus of college athletics.
If not, a completely new system should be developed like the NBA developmental league (except that HS students can enter it). It would be a risk in that if you do not make it, you don’t have the college education to fall back on later in life.
I believe that all of this started when kids started leaving early and the worst thing the NCAA allows is the one and done in MBB. I am ok with leaving for the NFL after 3 if they have a degree or a team agrees to repay their scholarship.
The money the athletic department makes goes to the university to fund things such as salaries for professors, academic improvements and all sorts of other programs that make the university competitive.
The main goal of a college or university is to provide academic advancement to students to better themselves in a career. It not for feeding the NFL and producing athletes. These athletes get a free education which is what the university basically sells. Did you read that? They get the product for free. why pay them more??????
Could you imagine witnessing some of the effort we saw this year and knowing they get paid for that?
Also; as employees. If they get in a fight or call someone a derogatory name do they get fired like I would?
If they want to play grown ups. Go all the way.
What, like the NFL? you must be joking right?
Not to mention the pay scale. Do you pay the QB more than the punter? Can you get a raise? Can other universities pay the players more hence attract more student athletes away from lower paying schools? Can people not see all the problems here.
Then start a league for that. We are a perverse society when pay millions for our entertainment only to cheapen our educational opportunities. Scholarship athletes should be students first and foremost.
Sports Illustrated once estimated that 78 percent of NFL players are either bankrupt or under financial stress within two years of retirement and 60 percent of National Basketball Association players are broke within five years of leaving the sport. The average length of a career in professional sports is relatively short: 3.3 years in the NFL; 4.6 years in the NBA; and 5.6 years in MLB.
You can never take away a person’s education but one play can ruin a sports career.
I agree a separate league would be ideal. True amateurism is not on display in college football today. Do away with scholarships and let the whole team walk on only after they are accepted to the university academically. That would be true amateurism.
The way it currently sits, it's a hybrid minor league for the NFL where a huge number of players end up working in the football industry as non-players after their playing days are over. Regulating that with a standard pay structure would make college football more competitive and more fun to watch.
Pay everyone the same base determined by year. Then put a bonus structure in place based on performance. You generate revenue for the school by throwing 40 TDs a year, you get paid for it.
Don't forget free health care while in college. That is a huge benefit.
The main goal of a university is highly subjective. I'd argue it's to make money at the state schools. At private schoolsl, education is still the goal mostly.
I can only speak for myself. I went to USC, got a degree and then a good paying job. Hence the university fulfilled it obligation to me. I think you just want to argue for arguments sake eh.
That's part of enjoying any messageboard or forum but I really do believe D1 college football has some serious problems that mostly revolve around money. I went to Carolina as well but it was a joke academically. My degree was fun I guess and my liberal arts classes exposed me to some interesting books and ideas but it was most certainly not worth the money I spent on it. Had a riot of a good time though. Cola is an underrated college town.
Well said. Also, you will lose a lot of fans that really enjoy the amateur atmosphere. And it won't just be football, will have to be every college sport, they will all have to get equal treatment. How much do we pay the women's volleyball players? And what happens when the non-star players don't make anything and the stars make it all, team morale issues? Opening a whole new can of worms, and the NYT (the absolute worst in journalism these days) would love to get rid of another American pastime. Why ruin amateur athletics which is going to happen? Like you said, the kids have it made now and get extraordinary benefits. It is just a bad idea.
There is a large segment of fans that support the teams because they love amatuer athletics and love supporting their alma mater or their favorite state school's team. They would not support a "professional" team, it loses its luster. Maybe others will replace them and maybe others will fund it, but it will not be the same anymore. Perhaps it's nostalgia and wanting to keep some things from becoming nothing but "all about $", And like it or not, there is a lot of people that want to see everything "American/Mom and Apple Pie" to be destroyed, including those at the NYT.
Still haven't addressed federal Title IX issues, state and federal non-profit tax issues, nor state and federal employment issues. It doesn't work to simply say that it will be taken care of. How are you going to address those issues?
Let the conferences pay the players under current legislation allowing them to profit from their names. Conferences could skirt title 9 and state and federal tax and employment issues that way. If the conferences still give you pause, set up a third party entity specifically designed to pay players for their likenesses.
You must be one of those pro bono attorneys...
You start thinking like a businessman and not like a junior associate and they'll upgrade you to that Kiton suit in no time.
No they can not. They can't skirt those issues. All of what you suggest will get you into trouble from one or more entities. FTR I am a tax attorney who practiced at Baker Hostetler....and have done plenty of pro bono work during my career.
Kilton suit is Italian design and is overpriced. Try a Gieves & Hawkes, Dunhill, etc...
That's absurd. If there is federal legislation saying that amateur athletes can profit from their likeness then it would be totally viable to pay them all a base plus bonus package for that likeness.
FTR, I've had plenty of dealings with tax attorneys at much bigger firms than Baker and no decent LLM would say it can't be done. They might say it will be tough but only second rate counsel says you can't do it.
Real talk. Come at me.
[/QUOTE]
could not disagree more.
I hate the constant comparison and references of college football players’ responsibility for the success of CFB to the coaches that lead these programs.
first...despite our many gripes, these HCs and coordinators that get the really big bucks are able to receive this due to that same reason you mentioned- the free market. Big difference between the coaches and the players is....the coaches have proven And earned theirjustification to be above their peers over 10,20,30 and sometimes 40 years to receive that paycheck. Let me know when a college kid comes up with the next air raid offense or saban/belichik defense that is copied 1000 times over annually from Hs and college programs.
next- the concept that any specific kid (much less all d1 players) is so desirable to watch that he is worth the type money mentioned in payouts is ludicrous. College fans show up every year , year after year for the love of the game,school and program. They pay their money for the name on the front...not the name on the back. Like it or not...I care more about who THIS years #7 in garnet and black will do...no matter if his nameis clowney or smith.
last/d1 college football players live their best life feom 18-23 years of age. For 99% of that population...during .their years of football play will be amongst the most lucrative living packages during any four year span of their lives. They will have a living package (medical and top level support and rehab staffs, education including tutors, unbelievable meal plans, access to top training facilities ,local and sometimes regional or national “celebrity” status due to WHO they are playing for which leads to many unspoken perks never to be enjoyed again)....all for free.
the pro sports athletes still haven’t realized that the Michael Jordan/league machine to maximize everyone’s profits is going to change very soon or else their businesses will die. I hope college powers that be realize the same...because if they don’t expand playoffs to 32 and regulate /penalize players for opting out of scholarship requirements (yes...the exchange is the school gives you all the free stuff mentioned for your playingfootball)...then college football will go the same way the nba, nfl and mlb is already heading.
[/QUOTE]
could not disagree more.
I hate the constant comparison and references of college football players’ responsibility for the success of CFB to the coaches that lead these programs.
first...despite our many gripes, these HCs and coordinators that get the really big bucks are able to receive this due to that same reason you mentioned- the free market. Big difference between the coaches and the players is....the coaches have proven And earned theirjustification to be above their peers over 10,20,30 and sometimes 40 years to receive that paycheck. Let me know when a college kid comes up with the next air raid offense or saban/belichik defense that is copied 1000 times over annually from Hs and college programs.
next- the concept that any specific kid (much less all d1 players) is so desirable to watch that he is worth the type money mentioned in payouts is ludicrous. College fans show up every year , year after year for the love of the game,school and program. They pay their money for the name on the front...not the name on the back. Like it or not...I care more about who THIS years #7 in garnet and black will do...no matter if his nameis clowney or smith.
last/d1 college football players live their best life feom 18-23 years of age. For 99% of that population...during .their years of football play will be amongst the most lucrative living packages during any four year span of their lives. They will have a living package (medical and top level support and rehab staffs, education including tutors, unbelievable meal plans, access to top training facilities ,local and sometimes regional or national “celebrity” status due to WHO they are playing for which leads to many unspoken perks never to be enjoyed again)....all for free.
the pro sports athletes still haven’t realized that the Michael Jordan/league machine to maximize everyone’s profits is going to change very soon or else their businesses will die. I hope college powers that be realize the same...because if they don’t expand playoffs to 32 and regulate /penalize players for opting out of scholarship requirements (yes...the exchange is the school gives you all the free stuff mentioned for your playingfootball)...then college football will go the same way the nba, nfl and mlb is already heading.
I'm messing with you. Kiton wouldn't work in South Carolina. You'd get laughed at.
could not disagree more.
I hate the constant comparison and references of college football players’ responsibility for the success of CFB to the coaches that lead these programs.
first...despite our many gripes, these HCs and coordinators that get the really big bucks are able to receive this due to that same reason you mentioned- the free market. Big difference between the coaches and the players is....the coaches have proven And earned theirjustification to be above their peers over 10,20,30 and sometimes 40 years to receive that paycheck. Let me know when a college kid comes up with the next air raid offense or saban/belichik defense that is copied 1000 times over annually from Hs and college programs.
next- the concept that any specific kid (much less all d1 players) is so desirable to watch that he is worth the type money mentioned in payouts is ludicrous. College fans show up every year , year after year for the love of the game,school and program. They pay their money for the name on the front...not the name on the back. Like it or not...I care more about who THIS years #7 in garnet and black will do...no matter if his nameis clowney or smith.
last/d1 college football players live their best life feom 18-23 years of age. For 99% of that population...during .their years of football play will be amongst the most lucrative living packages during any four year span of their lives. They will have a living package (medical and top level support and rehab staffs, education including tutors, unbelievable meal plans, access to top training facilities ,local and sometimes regional or national “celebrity” status due to WHO they are playing for which leads to many unspoken perks never to be enjoyed again)....all for free.
the pro sports athletes still haven’t realized that the Michael Jordan/league machine to maximize everyone’s profits is going to change very soon or else their businesses will die. I hope college powers that be realize the same...because if they don’t expand playoffs to 32 and regulate /penalize players for opting out of scholarship requirements (yes...the exchange is the school gives you all the free stuff mentioned for your playingfootball)...then college football will go the same way the nba, nfl and mlb is already heading.
[/QUOTE]
Expansion of playoff would be tight. Agree on the opt outs. Super lame.
At the collegiate level, stipends are good, even generous stipends. Many of these players come from nothing economically. Individual compensation to particular athletes on the open market is detrimental to team unity and that ought to mean something. These are young people. They will have plenty of time to operate for themselves in whatever field they pursue. In college, the offensive linemen should be at no disadvantage to the people he's blocking for.
