Should USC become a test free admission university?

[GivEmDaSpurs]

I am looking for logical debate about a newer trend in college academia. A lot of schools are going to a merit based system of high school gpa, extracurricular activities, and community involvement as the new standards for admission. The standardized test (SAT and ACT) have been deemed to be racially biased and not a good indicator of success on the collegiate level. Where many scholarships were once based on these test scores there are those who believe that it profiles a white privilege and to a greater percent an Asian privilege. This “privilege” is mostly based on social economics.

The goal of this thought process is to provide more diversification and to provide a greater number of scholarships to under privileged students.

Here is the University’s admission criteria:

“Freshman admission is based primarily on high school courses, grades and supplemental materials submitted with the application. Supplemental materials used during the holistic review process include: standardized test scores, a supplemental essay, extraordinary personal circumstances, special talents, outstanding extracurricular activities and evidence of leadership.

Because the COVID-19 pandemic has limited opportunities to take the SAT and ACT, students applying for freshman admission will not be required to submit standardized test scores for the spring, summer or fall 2021 terms. Students who apply without SAT or ACT scores may provide supplemental materials for use in the university's holistic review process. The test-optional policy applies to students applying for general university and South Carolina Honors College admission, as well as merit scholarships.”

Take out the COVID statement because I am interested in your thoughts post pandemic. What say you? Should our beloved University do away with standardized testing for college admission (or it be an optional thing to consider) or should we require testing to be a part of the admission process?

 

[king ward]

I'm good with it, as long as the transcript gains sufficient compensatory emphasis to ensure academic credibility.

 

[Crutcher1]

I'm good with it, as long as the transcript gains sufficient compensatory emphasis to ensure academic credibility.

Furman does not require the SAT or ACT.

 

[Rollerdude123]

I hate the idea of the SAT being a factor in college admission. I think it’s fine for determining some scholarships.

 

[GivEmDaSpurs]

I'm good with it, as long as the transcript gains sufficient compensatory emphasis to ensure academic credibility.

That’s the thing about it. The transcripts would have to have more credibility but studies have shown that it is equal to or more discriminatory in many circumstances.

From a Forbes publication:
“Last year, the Fordham Institute published American University professor Seth Gershenson’s study of grade inflation in American high schools, which demonstrates that grade inflation is real and rampant in high schools. These are the very high school grades that colleges now tell us should be relied on in place of the SAT/ACT. In fact, so ravaged by grade inflation are our high schools today, argues Gershenson, that “two-thirds of U.S. teenagers are ill-prepared for college when they leave high school.”
Moreover, and directly relevant to our effort to discover the consequences of dropping the ACT/SAT, Gershenson found that “grade inflation was more severe in schools attended by affluent studentsthan in those attended by lower-income pupils (emphasis mine). So, richer students—those who live in suburbs and are primarily white—are playing the academic game. How bad is grade inflation in high schools today? A 2017 study finds that the average high school GPA (grade point average) in 2016 was 3.38 (out of a possible 4). The study also found that the average high school GPA has risen steadily over the years. From this, Gershenson concludes, “Unfortunately, it’s getting harder and harder to assume that an A truly represents excellence.”
But wait. We have been told that high school grades will be the new, better standard for determining college admissions. But how can this be, given widespread grade inflation?

 

[GivEmDaSpurs]

I hate the idea of the SAT being a factor in college admission. I think it’s fine for determining some scholarships.

Can you explain your dislike of the SAT or offer up other alternatives to standardized testing?

 

[Millertime6289]

How is a test racially biased? Because you focused on sports instead of schooling?

 

[Rollerdude123]

Can you explain your dislike of the SAT or offer up other alternatives to standardized testing?

I think it’s a poor way to decide who is worthy of admission to a university.

the test can be gamed. I had the opportunity to pay for my 17 year old to have a college level prep experience this summer, virtually, for the SAT with a very successful SAT tutor(yes, there is such a market) I chose not to because my son’s grades 4.0+ are good enough to get into his preferred college.

Success on the SAT tracks closely with family income levels.

https://www.wired.com/story/college-calculus-problem-with-the-sat/

 

[duckcock2]

Zach Morris was a f**k up at Bayside High all those years, but he got a 1502 on the SAT. He applied to Yale, but wound up going to Cal U.

 

[Cola G'Cock]

I think it’s a poor way to decide who is worthy of admission to a university.

the test can be gamed. I had the opportunity to pay for my 17 year old to have a college level prep experience this summer, virtually, for the SAT with a very successful SAT tutor(yes, there is such a market) I chose not to because my son’s grades 4.0+ are good enough to get into his preferred college.

Success on the SAT tracks closely with family income levels.

https://www.wired.com/story/college-calculus-problem-with-the-sat/

Most everything in live closely tracks to family income levels. This is nothing new.

 

[ClemDent]

With grade inflation rampant I just don’t see how you can drop standardized testing. You’ve got CP, Honors, AP etc. An A in one isn’t the same as an A in another. So what if your school doesn’t have enough kids for an AP class, etc. I also believe we need to return to a more stringent grading system. Meaning a “C” was average, above average was a B and A was reserved for only a few students. Now everyone gets an A or a B and they have to take the aforementioned classes to differentiate themselves.

 

[purenonsense]

Furman does not require the SAT or ACT.

How long has that been going on for them ?

 

[polo-loco]

Standardized testing isn't a good predictor of college success. They should've tossed it out years ago.

 

[king ward]

Furman does not require the SAT or ACT.

I understand Furman is still very selective, which is what I'm talking about.

 

[The Ironed Sheet]

USC categorized the move as a response to COVID, but it will be difficult to walk it back for future classes. Like Furman and others, USC will have to create a new set of standards for students not submitting test scores.

The BIG news will be if the NCAA Clearinghouse permanently changes their test requirement.

 

[king ward]

That’s the thing about it. The transcripts would have to have more credibility but studies have shown that it is equal to or more discriminatory in many circumstances.

From a Forbes publication:
“Last year, the Fordham Institute published American University professor Seth Gershenson’s study of grade inflation in American high schools, which demonstrates that grade inflation is real and rampant in high schools. These are the very high school grades that colleges now tell us should be relied on in place of the SAT/ACT. In fact, so ravaged by grade inflation are our high schools today, argues Gershenson, that “two-thirds of U.S. teenagers are ill-prepared for college when they leave high school.”
Moreover, and directly relevant to our effort to discover the consequences of dropping the ACT/SAT, Gershenson found that “grade inflation was more severe in schools attended by affluent studentsthan in those attended by lower-income pupils (emphasis mine). So, richer students—those who live in suburbs and are primarily white—are playing the academic game. How bad is grade inflation in high schools today? A 2017 study finds that the average high school GPA (grade point average) in 2016 was 3.38 (out of a possible 4). The study also found that the average high school GPA has risen steadily over the years. From this, Gershenson concludes, “Unfortunately, it’s getting harder and harder to assume that an A truly represents excellence.”
But wait. We have been told that high school grades will be the new, better standard for determining college admissions. But how can this be, given widespread grade inflation?

Well, I guess the weeding out will have to be done at the college level, then, unless we are also going to devalue that. Of course, that will forestall if not deprive many deserving students of their chance at higher education. It will likewise lead to society losing whatever contribution they might have made.

 

[ToddFlanders]

My daughter makes straight-A’s (something I never did), in honors classes, but will do horribly in any standardized test (dyslexic and ADD). But she’ll bury most anyone she goes to college with (at a state school - I’m not fooling myself with Ivy League right now).

 

[Rollerdude123]

How long has that been going on for them ?

furman? 2011


About 40% of colleges don’t require such tests.

Wofford and Presbyterian don’t require the SAT or ACT.

The strongest indicator of student success is how they've performed in the classroom throughout high school," - Melissa Cline, Director of Admissions, Furman.

 

[Kitchenlabs]

I think Wake Forest stopped requiring it years ago.

 

[GivEmDaSpurs]

I think it’s a poor way to decide who is worthy of admission to a university.

the test can be gamed. I had the opportunity to pay for my 17 year old to have a college level prep experience this summer, virtually, for the SAT with a very successful SAT tutor(yes, there is such a market) I chose not to because my son’s grades 4.0+ are good enough to get into his preferred college.

Success on the SAT tracks closely with family income levels.

https://www.wired.com/story/college-calculus-problem-with-the-sat/

I am not disagreeing with your statement about the test being able to be gamed. But, so can grades. I referenced an article in Forbes that talked about that issue.

Would you think that EOC tests should carry a heavier weight?

 

[Rollerdude123]

I am not disagreeing with your statement about the test being able to be gamed. But, so can grades. I referenced an article in Forbes that talked about that issue.

Would you think that EOC tests should carry a heavier weight?

No.

I think grades and other factors are fine for consideration. Many more colleges than we think ignore SAT scores now and do fine.

 

[GivEmDaSpurs]

My daughter makes straight-A’s (something I never did), in honors classes, but will do horribly in any standardized test (dyslexic and ADD). But she’ll bury most anyone she goes to college with (at a state school - I’m not fooling myself with Ivy League right now).

I have 2 sons. They both are honor roll students. One graduated with honors and scored 1450 on the SAT in his junior year. He was getting letters from most everywhere and chose the Marine Corp. He will excel.

Our younger son is a lazy student but tests very well. He wants to go to college but at this stage I worry that he lacks the discipline to be successful at that level. He will be a junior and we worry about his grades being insufficient in the ever changing landscape of college admissions. He will have to apply himself more. Unfortunately it leaves less time for him to have fun and be a kid.

BTW- congrats to your daughter!

 

[Rollerdude123]

I have 2 sons. They both are honor roll students. One graduated with honors and scored 1450 on the SAT in his junior year. He was getting letters from most everywhere and chose the Marine Corp. He will excel.

Our younger son is a lazy student but tests very well. He wants to go to college but at this stage I worry that he lacks the discipline to be successful at that level. He will be a junior and we worry about his grades being insufficient in the ever changing landscape of college admissions. He will have to apply himself more. Unfortunately it leaves less time for him to have fun and be a kid.

BTW- congrats to your daughter!

Your younger son sounds like the perfect candidate for community tech school for university transfer courses. Cheaper (free in some counties) and a great place to get use to college work.

Ironically, 4 year schools won’t really care what SAT scores are if he transfers in and no boss will ever care.

 

[Conway Gamecock]

Zach Morris was a f**k up at Bayside High all those years, but he got a 1502 on the SAT. He applied to Yale, but wound up going to Cal U.

That's because Screech couldn't get into Yale, and therefore they wouldn't have been able to do the "Saved By The Bell: The College Years" otherwise....

 

[Crutcher1]

How long has that been going on for them ?

At least three years that I know of. Most applicants would have already taken it, but it is not a requirement for admission.

 

[midline]

There is no perfect solution. Though I do think some type of testing does give a common baseline for knowledge. And as far as going off GPA from high school. Not all high schools are created equal. An A at a place like River Bluff, and an A at one of our states more rural, smaller schools, are often two different things.

 

[AnCRooster]

I think it’s a poor way to decide who is worthy of admission to a university.

the test can be gamed. I had the opportunity to pay for my 17 year old to have a college level prep experience this summer, virtually, for the SAT with a very successful SAT tutor(yes, there is such a market) I chose not to because my son’s grades 4.0+ are good enough to get into his preferred college.

Success on the SAT tracks closely with family income levels.

https://www.wired.com/story/college-calculus-problem-with-the-sat/

Amazing how people who try harder and care more have higher income levels.

 

[Forever Fowl]

Wofford required the SAT when I was there but high school grades counted heavily.

 

[Cocky4SC]

With grade inflation rampant I just don’t see how you can drop standardized testing. You’ve got CP, Honors, AP etc. An A in one isn’t the same as an A in another. So what if your school doesn’t have enough kids for an AP class, etc. I also believe we need to return to a more stringent grading system. Meaning a “C” was average, above average was a B and A was reserved for only a few students. Now everyone gets an A or a B and they have to take the aforementioned classes to differentiate themselves.

You can't do that unfortunately because of the "participation trophy" grades everyone wants to get now. I took several Honors/AP classes in high school, the A/B that I received in those classes held a higher weight than a CP class. As it should. But today, parents believe little Johnny and Sally deserve to have all A's and B's no matter what.

 

[GivEmDaSpurs]

Your younger son sounds like the perfect candidate for community tech school for university transfer courses. Cheaper (free in some counties) and a great place to get use to college work.

Ironically, 4 year schools won’t really care what SAT scores are if he transfers in.

At the moment, this is the plan and while in HS to get some vocational training. We have been talking with him about alternative routes to his goal of working with DNR or FDA. We are even talking about how the military would train him, provide discipline, and pay for his future education.

 

[Superior7]

Need an honest test administered to every applicant. Academic fraud is too common to not have a test like the SAT or ACT. I have heard some unbelievable stories about top of class students scoring poorly outside of the bubble that enabled them to earn scholarships and admission to their school choice.

 

[Rollerdude123]

Amazing how people who try harder and care more have higher income levels.

Baloney.

Not everyone with higher incomes “tries harder or “cares more.”

In fact, plenty of very hard workers who care a lot don’t have high incomes.

and of course there are plenty of folks with high incomes that don’t work that hard and don’t care that much.

I know plenty of various types.

 

[Rollerdude123]

At the moment, this is the plan and while in HS to get some vocational training. We have been talking with him about alternative routes to his goal of working with DNR or FDA. We are even talking about how the military would train him, provide discipline, and pay for his future education.

good.

Some poorly motivated students in high school go on to have great careers.

some academically successful kids in high school go on to have mundane careers.

2 year college is not just for vocational careers. Plenty of grad students in the sciences started out at tech.

 

[GivEmDaSpurs]

You can't do that unfortunately because of the "participation trophy" grades everyone wants to get now. I took several Honors/AP classes in high school, the A/B that I received in those classes held a higher weight than a CP class. As it should. But today, parents believe little Johnny and Sally deserve to have all A's and B's no matter what.

So true! At my son’s HS, they are allowed to make up any missed assignments or retake tests during their lunch breaks. There is NO excuse for ANY student to not be an honor roll student. The lowest grade they can get is a 50 unless they just don’t do an assignment. What you described as the honors classes is now what separates those more intellectually gifted or more motivated.

Man, how times have changed!

 

[rodemi]

Amazing how people who try harder and care more have higher income levels.

And race is no factor either

 

[TN-Gamecock]

furman? 2011


About 40% of colleges don’t require such tests.

Wofford and Presbyterian don’t require the SAT or ACT.

The strongest indicator of student success is how they've performed in the classroom throughout high school," - Melissa Cline, Director of Admissions, Furman.

I'll bite on this one....What about the reputation of the high schoool...

Would a student with a 4.0 at a school like Orangeburg Wilkinson beat out a student with a 3.5 at say Riverside High in terms of college ready. Look at where the two rank in the state....

You do have to have some measure...otherwise it's what's happening at the IVY league schools and Stanford...the students who got in due to quotas are dropping out or at the bottom of the class...

If USC starts taking marginal students, the next thing you know, they will want to lower standards, thus causing us to not be competitive with UGA, UF...we are ranked 5th right now in academic rankings in the SEC behind Vandy, UF, UGA & A&M...to get to UF and UGA level academically, we cannot afford to lower any standards thus we become MSU and OLE Miss....who pretty much have open enrollment...

 

[GivEmDaSpurs]

good.

Some poorly motivated students in high school go on to have great careers.

some academically successful kids in high school go on to have mundane careers.

2 year college is not just for vocational careers. Plenty of grad students in the sciences started out at tech.

Along with his guidance counselor at school, we have had some difficult conversations with him because of the entitlement that he (and so many others his age) feel. I feel that a lot of parents and schools fail kids because of not honestly communicating with them. Yes, we all want them to be successful but I agree that there are many different paths to achieving it.

 

[BobbyBReloaded1975]

Zach Morris was a f**k up at Bayside High all those years, but he got a 1502 on the SAT. He applied to Yale, but wound up going to Cal U.

Yeah but his band sucked

 

[Rollerdude123]

Along with his guidance counselor at school, we have had some difficult conversations with him because of the entitlement that he (and so many others his age) feel. I feel that a lot of parents and schools fail kids because of not honestly communicating with them. Yes, we all want them to be successful but I agree that there are many different paths to achieving it.

I feel you.

I don’t have the answer to motivating young people. I’ve succeeded and I’ve failed. I know I have no answer.

 

[Rollerdude123]

I'll bite on this one....What about the reputation of the high schoool...

Would a student with a 4.0 at a school like Orangeburg Wilkinson beat out a student with a 3.5 at say Riverside High in terms of college ready. Look at where the two rank in the state....

You do have to have some measure...otherwise it's what's happening at the IVY league schools and Stanford...the students who got in due to quotas are dropping out or at the bottom of the class...

If USC starts taking marginal students, the next thing you know, they will want to lower standards, thus causing us to not be competitive with UGA, UF...we are ranked 5th right now in academic rankings in the SEC behind Vandy, UF, UGA & A&M...to get to UF and UGA level academically, we cannot afford to lower any standards thus we become MSU and OLE Miss....who pretty much have open enrollment...

I’m sure that plays into it. It seems to be working well for Furman and other schools.