In 28 years of SEC membership, USC has finished with 6 winning records. Frank Martin has 3 of those.
some perspective (Men's BB)
- Thread starter LazyIslander
- Start date
In 8 seasons Fogler had 2 winning records in the SEC.
In 7 seasons Odom had 0.
In 4 seasons Horn had 1.
In 7 seasons Martin has had 3.
In 7 seasons Odom had 0.
In 4 seasons Horn had 1.
In 7 seasons Martin has had 3.
Yea but those are just facts. Haven’t you heard his elite 8 run with Kansas St and His final four run with us were both flukes?
Well, those 5 fluke NCAAT games I attended gave me a lifetime of memories.
I didn't see the SEC winning record banners at CLA.
So, 43% of the time Martin was above ..500 in league play? And he was our best recent HBBC?
Wow, we have a low bar at USC!
I may be in the minority here, but based on the record the OP stated for both the program and FM, this looks like a declaration of mediocrity at best, and inadequacy at worst.
That does offer some perspective. It sounds like Frank needs to figure out how to get his guys to play quality basketball earlier in the season. It also wouldn't hurt if they didnt consistently fade down the stretch, but the OOC portion of the schedule appears to be the biggest problem.
Much of this thread perfectly describes the mindset of a lot of the USC fan base. Not only in basketball, but across the board. As long as there is a high spot to wet our whistle every now and again, mediocrity the vast majority of the time is OK. Two years after a final four appearance (and yes, thattwas a very unexpected two week run. This team was 16-16 ( really 15-16 as beating NGU doesn't really count). Mike Anderson had a decent record and multiple NCAA appearances at Arky. But they want something more. LSU, albeit with some tricky recruiting, managed to bring in some players and turn their program around. Drew at Vandy had a give star go down that would have made all the difference, but got the boot. Even Alabama, the furthest thing from a basketball school decided they wanted to strive to be better than mediocre. UGA did the same last year and have one of the best recruiting classes in the country coming in next year. But USC seems to be content to plod along. Hoping that without a decent big man that somehow they will improve. I haven't the slightest doubt that just making the NIT will be a solid point of pride with many, and signs that Frank has things on the right track as he nears his second decade as basketball coach. USC fans have suffered as much as any fan base in the country. You won't find many fan bases that have supported as well as USC fans do but have so little to show for it. Past time for the administration to demand excellence. If that brings down Ray, Frank, Will, and Kingston, so be it. All get paid very handsomely to produce the consistent results that nobody is seeing.
This is definitely an issue but Frank has to take responsibility for this as well. It's hard for a team to gel in Nov/Dec when there's been constant turnover and new faces every season. He said in yesterday's press conference that he anticipates everyone coming back. We'll see what happens over the summer. If we start seeing players bolt again; it will be a sign that this is an epidemic that will not end as long as he's here.
" A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" : Winston Churchill. Frank will be back next season and has to win.....we can't discuss our way to change.
GandBinNC
GarnetTrust.com Member/Supporter
If we can all agree that Martin inherited the program at the absolute worst point in the previous four decades, maybe we would also agree that those first three seasons he probably gets a pass, as he faced a laborious rebuilding project.
So, in the last four seasons, FM has achieved three winning SEC records (the same number of winning SEC records as in the 21 combined seasons of Newton, Fogler, Odom and Horn). He has also achieved three top four conference finishes, the first NCAA Tournament win since 1973, a Final Four finish, and in doing so, matched the total number of NCAA Tourney wins in the entire history of the program (and a couple of those prior tournament wins were consolation games)!
Granted (and nobody argues this), the overall results have not been as consistent as we would have liked, and missing the NCAA (and even the NIT) the last two seasons coming off of the Final Four is concerning. But I think you have to take a step back and look at the overall trend, which I would argue is going in the right direction.
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Firing people until you find an immediate winner sounds easier than it is. Then, that assumes that coach would want to stick around Columbia once successful.
Many programs fire quickly, and it doesn't work. "Demanding excellence" sure sounds good on a message board with people that are only looking at box scores and standings.
GandBinNC
GarnetTrust.com Member/Supporter
Ok, hate to be a stickler for detail, and I don't think you actually meant what you wrote, but FM is three seasons away from completing his FIRST decade as head coach. Good Lord, I'm admittedly a pro-FM guy, but if he still has just one NCAA tourney appearance as he nears his second decade, I'll personally help him pack.
One could argue Fogler inherited just as big a mess as Martin. I’m for giving Martin another year...simply because of how bad we have been. What’s one more year? If it doesn’t work out, we’ll probably be having the same conversation in 5 years or so because that’s what we’ve been. Going to take something drastic to change this program.
Kind of funny
How can you possibly use that kind of logic??? The current trend is that we will have a losing season next year. We lost to Stony Brook, Wyoming (8-24), OK State (12-20), Woofard, Providence College, Clemson (for the second year in a row), lose to Ky by 28, lose to both Tennessee & LSU by 22, lose to Missouri (15-17) by 15 and beat Vanderbilt (9-23, 0-18) by 3 whole points. If it wasn't for Klemson Junior High, we would have had a losing record. Of course, losing to Augusta in the preseason doesn't count. But we're going in the right direction???
But more importantly, how many times are the Sunshine Pumpers going to use the past records of Newton, Odom and Horn to justify Martin's record??? Ridiculous! You're paying the man just under $3 Million dollars per year to change all that. After 7 years, Martin's and Odom's records are virtually identical and Odom was fired for
non-performance. Maybe we should have kept Odom and pocketed the difference. Or, at least given him another year or two because the next coach wasn't going to do any better???
Everyone is suppose to get their rocks off because we finished TIED for FOURTH PLACE in the SEC??? Yes and that team we tied for 4th place in the SEC ended up beating us in the SEC Tournament. Oh! but, let's say it again and again and again ... 'Frank's not the WORST in the history of Carolina Basketball!! Horn, Newton and Odom (by 1 game) were worse'. The kids in next year's class were in the fifth grade when Odom coached here. They weren't even in school when Newton was coach but, let's give Martin another year or two. Maybe, next year, the NCAA will give us a Certificate of Participation since we're going in the right direction.
How can you possibly use that kind of logic??? The current trend is that we will have a losing season next year. We lost to Stony Brook, Wyoming (8-24), OK State (12-20), Woofard, Providence College, Clemson (for the second year in a row), lose to Ky by 28, lose to both Tennessee & LSU by 22, lose to Missouri (15-17) by 15 and beat Vanderbilt (9-23, 0-18) by 3 whole points. If it wasn't for Klemson Junior High, we would have had a losing record. Of course, losing to Augusta in the preseason doesn't count. But we're going in the right direction???
But more importantly, how many times are the Sunshine Pumpers going to use the past records of Newton, Odom and Horn to justify Martin's record??? Ridiculous! You're paying the man just under $3 Million dollars per year to change all that. After 7 years, Martin's and Odom's records are virtually identical and Odom was fired for
non-performance. Maybe we should have kept Odom and pocketed the difference. Or, at least given him another year or two because the next coach wasn't going to do any better???
Everyone is suppose to get their rocks off because we finished TIED for FOURTH PLACE in the SEC??? Yes and that team we tied for 4th place in the SEC ended up beating us in the SEC Tournament. Oh! but, let's say it again and again and again ... 'Frank's not the WORST in the history of Carolina Basketball!! Horn, Newton and Odom (by 1 game) were worse'. The kids in next year's class were in the fifth grade when Odom coached here. They weren't even in school when Newton was coach but, let's give Martin another year or two. Maybe, next year, the NCAA will give us a Certificate of Participation since we're going in the right direction.
GandBinNC
GarnetTrust.com Member/Supporter
I get your frustration. Maybe not your anger, but definitely your frustration. I think I spelled my argument out pretty clearly, so I won't rehash it here. Put more succinctly, I am not satisfied if this is Martin's end product. But I don't think it is. I believe the progress he has made has us on the right path. Not as swift as you or I would prefer, but against the backdrop of our history, we are moving forward and are poised for greater success.
I get that you don't agree with this which is fine. I respect your opinion. I see it differently than you do.
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Oh, I think he's definitely the one who has to take responsibility for our slow starts. Whether it has to do with his coaching style, his "brand" of basketball, the high turnover rate among the players, or a combination of all three, those are all the HC's responsibility. Very few teams come out of the gate playing their best basketball of the season, but you can't go into the conference schedule with a losing record and expect to climb out of that hole.
That's a fair point and well put, I think.
Assuming we all agree that .500 basketball is not satisfactory and that the product we want to see is a program that makes the NCAA tournament on a consistent basis, how long do you think is a reasonable time to wait for our next tournament appearance? It's an honest question and one I posted to another poster on another thread. Assuming most of the Martin critics see next year as an ultimatum year, if we go 16-16 next year and fail to make the tournament, I really don't think the current Martin critics and current Martin defenders will be all that far apart. But maybe I'm wrong, so I'm curious what you think.
GandBinNC
GarnetTrust.com Member/Supporter
Fair question, indeed. I hesitate to call any year an "ultimatum year", because I think that places undue pressure on players, coaches, recruits, etc. I think it creates a tenuous vibe around a program which does would not serve Martin or the program well. Of course, this is why "ultimatum years" are rarely spelled out publicly.
That said, I think next year is highly important for Martin. And I think he would admit the same (to himself, if not to the assembled media). The program has to continue to progress. How do you define "progress" from year seven to year eight?
- It starts with stabilizing the roster. Multiple transfers again this year will not bode well.
- Beyond that, assuming stability with the roster, Carolina must beat the teams it should beat in November and December. Two additional wins in 2018 (a 7-5 start rather than 5-7), and we are likely dancing this season.
- Continued success in conference. That may not mean 11-7 and a 4th place finish, but continued success. Must win at home.
- An NCAA tournament bid next season is important. Is it a dealbreaker? It depends on progress in the first three bullet points. If we progress there, the bid should take care of itself.
"The program has to continue to progress. How do you define "progress" from year seven to year eight? It starts with stabilizing the roster. Multiple transfers again this year will not bode well."
Martin has shown, with his SR trio of Thornwell, Notice and McKie, that if he can keep players in the program he can be very successful. But he cannot seem -- even following a Final Four appearance -- to recruit enough players who will stick it out with him through a SR year, and I don't know how that pattern gets better.
Martin has shown, with his SR trio of Thornwell, Notice and McKie, that if he can keep players in the program he can be very successful. But he cannot seem -- even following a Final Four appearance -- to recruit enough players who will stick it out with him through a SR year, and I don't know how that pattern gets better.
First - All wins that happen during the regular season count as wins.
Second - Alabama - the furthest thing from a basketball school as you say - has 8 regular season conference championships, 7 conference tournament championships, 21 (count them) appearances in the NCAA tournament, 15 round of 32 appearances, 8 Sweet Sixteens, and one Elite Eight.
As for the fans supporting the basketball team, you are wrong there, too. They may buy the tickets, but they sure as hell don't show up to support the team.
And never mind that the basketball team had three starters out for a large part of the season and where down to seven scholarship players due to said injuries.
So yes, let's FIRE EVERYBODY, and see how that works out for you.
But, you are on a roll; roll on..
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