ADVERTISEMENT

What if Freeze hadn’t cheated?

BeCocky77

Member
Sep 21, 2020
807
1,053
93
And coached his way to a 32-32 record instead of 39-25? And, say, 15-25 in conference instead of 19-21.

Would we still be interested?

For that matter, why are we supposed to be enamored with a guy who had a losing record in the conference, even with rampant cheating?
 
Fair point. It’s hard to know how much of his success was illegal recruiting and how much was legitimate coaching. That said, the general consensus nationally is that he is the #1 coaching target in the country for schools with upcoming vacancies (assuming Urban Meyer is disinterested). Freeze may have the whole world fooled as to his ability but it’s unlikely .
 
And coached his way to a 32-32 record instead of 39-25? And, say, 15-25 in conference instead of 19-21.

Would we still be interested?

For that matter, why are we supposed to be enamored with a guy who had a losing record in the conference, even with rampant cheating?
I am not enamored. Some people cannot see back beyond this season- True when evaluating our coach or when evaluating coaching candidates. Fortunately those fans are not doing the hiring... We will hopefully hire a firm to help us with that! 😉
 
Fair point. It’s hard to know how much of his success was illegal recruiting and how much was legitimate coaching. That said, the general consensus nationally is that he is the #1 coaching target in the country for schools with upcoming vacancies (assuming Urban Meyer is disinterested). Freeze may have the whole world fooled as to his ability but it’s unlikely .

And yet nobody can say WHY he’s the top coaching target.

A few years ago they told us Herman and Fuente were the next coaching greats.
 
And yet nobody can say WHY he’s the top coaching target.

A few years ago they told us Herman and Fuente were the next coaching greats.
Apparently because of what he has done at Liberty. If people would actually delve into his past I think they would come up with enough question marks to reevaluate his suitability to be our next coach. I was on board with him at first. In retrospect see way too much baggage there with the cheating, poor moral judgement and the allegations of sexual misconduct at the high school where he got his start. He is a sleezeball in my opinion. Additionally, the op makes a very valid assessment of his coaching abilities. I am certain we can do better!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Blaken91
2011 Ole Miss was 2-10 before Freeze took over and was a bottom feeder. Freeze immediately built a winner.
2012 7-6
2013 8-5
2014 9-4
2015 10-3
2016 5-7

He then took over Liberty a new FBS team and went 8-5 his first year, now he has them at 8-0 and ranked in the Top 25.

Freeze has one single losing season as a Head coach.
 
  • Like
Reactions: uscnoklahoma2
2011 Ole Miss was 2-10 before Freeze took over and was a bottom feeder. Freeze immediately built a winner.
2012 7-6
2013 8-5
2014 9-4
2015 10-3
2016 5-7

He then took over Liberty a new FBS team and went 8-5 his first year, now he has them at 8-0 and ranked in the Top 25.

Freeze has one single losing season as a Head coach.

Did you bother reading the OP? All Ole Miss data must be discarded bc he cheated to attain results.
 
  • Like
Reactions: uscedge21
How did Hugh Freeze “allegedly” cheat? All
I can find is that he dailed an escort service on his University issued cellphone.....
So what? We are looking for a Head Coach, not a pope........
 
  • Like
Reactions: uscnoklahoma2
And coached his way to a 32-32 record instead of 39-25? And, say, 15-25 in conference instead of 19-21.

Would we still be interested?

For that matter, why are we supposed to be enamored with a guy who had a losing record in the conference, even with rampant cheating?
He’d be cool guy to go out with, especially when your old lady is out of town.
 
And coached his way to a 32-32 record instead of 39-25? And, say, 15-25 in conference instead of 19-21.

Would we still be interested?

For that matter, why are we supposed to be enamored with a guy who had a losing record in the conference, even with rampant cheating?
Well, he would have gotten to Liberty or somewhere sooner, maybe won more games total and we would still be looking at him about the same way we are looking at Napier. He would be a front-runner anyway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cadcock
Allow me to float this take;

Let’s acknowledge that he cheated in recruiting to get better talent.

Now with that out of the way, you still have to USE that talent; put players in position, gameplan, and coach on game day . Regardless of how the players came to be, did he WIN with those players? My suggestion is that THAT, comes down to his ability as a COACH. Cheater or not, it seems to me like he must be a decent coach. (Not necessarily arguing for or against - just offering a counterpoint.)
 
And yet nobody can say WHY he’s the top coaching target.

A few years ago they told us Herman and Fuente were the next coaching greats.
He's won everywhere he coached. That's pretty obvious. By the way, I don't think he's a serious contender for the job.

And what's Herman's record at Texas? 30-17? Why is he considered a failure?
 
Whatever Hugh Freeze did at Ole Miss besides winning and changing the culture is "old news". Liberty U (Jerry Falwell) gave him a 2nd chance and boy has he delivered. If he beats NC State this week, Liberty will stay undefeated at 9-0 and also 3-0 in the ACC (maybe Liberty belongs in the ACC Championship game). We all know that Alabama, Auburn, and LSU play by the rules and would never do anything underhanded. ;) I definitely could go with Heupel, Freeze, and Napier (and maybe even Chadwell). Big matchup in final game on December 5th between potentially undefeated teams Liberty and Coastal Carolina. Winner may get a new job!
 
Allow me to float this take;

Let’s acknowledge that he cheated in recruiting to get better talent.

Now with that out of the way, you still have to USE that talent; put players in position, gameplan, and coach on game day . Regardless of how the players came to be, did he WIN with those players? My suggestion is that THAT, comes down to his ability as a COACH. Cheater or not, it seems to me like he must be a decent coach. (Not necessarily arguing for or against - just offering a counterpoint.)
Good Point. I was thinking the same thing. Yes, he did cheat in recruiting by bringing top players to his program at Ole Miss. But the coaching aspect can't be ignored. The counter argument could be made anyone can coach top tier talent, but we've been around enough to know that is not always the case.
But leave behind the Ole Miss aspect for a moment, and the amazing job he's done at Liberty can not be miscounted.
I'm not advocating a Freeze hire, nor am I attempting to mitigate his past discretions, I'm just looking at the coaching job he has done at those schools.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 92Pony and cadcock
Wait, are we supposed to not want to cheat? Meaning we have to play by different rules than many of the other teams we play every year?
Hugh Freeze got caught (I guess). That's the only difference.

Can't constantly want to be like Clemson if you're going to be prissy. If you're going to be straight and narrow, especially in the SEC, you've got to understand .500 or slightly better is our ceiling, and "facilities" etc isn't going to change that. It is the will of the football gods.
 
How did Hugh Freeze “allegedly” cheat? All
I can find is that he dailed an escort service on his University issued cellphone.....
So what? We are looking for a Head Coach, not a pope........

Not sure if serious or not, but while some were pretty petty, there were also some pretty heavy allegations and penalties under his watch. He would have had to have been obtuse not to know what was going on. This does not even take into account the escort services, etc... I remember seeing text messages from coaches about paying players, etc...Don't be surprised if the NCAA comes snooping if we do decide to go this route.

Ole Miss athletic director Ross Bjork says the school will vacate 33 football wins from six seasons between 2010 and 2016 after using ineligible players during games.

The punishment stems from 15 Level I violation under former head coach Hugh Freeze, which included recruiting and academic violations.

The school will vacate four wins from the 2010 season, two from 2011, seven each from the 2012 and 2015 seasons, eight from 2014 and five from 2016. The vacated wins are treated as if they never took place.

Freeze's record at Ole Miss, which was 39–25 during his five seasons, now stands officially at 12–25.

As a result of the NCAA investigation, Ole Miss received a two-year postseason ban, three years of probation and was stripped of scholarships over four years.

Freeze, who resigned from Ole Miss in 2017, is now the head coach at Liberty

Boosters paid at least $13,000 to a recruit who later spurned them.
That’s what the NCAA says a couple of Ole Miss boosters did. In its new batch, the NCAA alleges a former Rebel staffer set up a couple of boosters with a recruit, and those boosters furnished the player with between $13,000 and $15,600 in cash between April 2014 and February 2015. And then the recruit didn’t even go there.

2. Two former Ole Miss assistants helped fix recruits' ACT scores.
Before the Rebels’ alleged failed Bag Man attempt, this was the top of the ticket, as part of the NCAA’s initial 13 allegations last year.

The NCAA says previous assistants Chris Vaughn and David Saunders instructed recruits to take the ACT college entry exam at a specific high school in Wayne County, Miss., in 2010.

Vaughn and Saunders instructed the recruits to leave blank any answer spaces they weren't confident about, the NCAA says. This would allow correct answers to be filled in later, presumably so they'd qualify at Ole Miss.


As a result, the NCAA says three Ole Miss players competed while they weren't eligible in 2011, and one continued to play while ineligible for three more seasons.

Ole Miss agreed testing fraud happened, though the school was light on details.

3. Ole Miss demonstrated a lack of institutional control.
This is a big one. The NCAA says “institutional” control describes “the efforts institutions make to comply with NCAA legislation and to detect and investigate violations that do occur.” To say you’ve “lacked” it is to say you haven’t cared about rules, and it can be a pretext for a hammering.

The LOIC is an evolved form, according to Ole Miss, of a “failure to monitor” charge the NCAA had previously announced. Ole Miss is contesting it.

4. A former staffer knowingly broke rules and lied to everyone about it.
The staffer the NCAA believes set up the big payment to the recruit is charged with trampling over NCAA regulations. Ole Miss says that staffer lied to the school, too. It’s juicy in the same way perjury is juicy in actual courts.

5. An Ole Miss booster gave a player’s family member $800 in cash in August 2014.
The juice depends mostly on the means of transfer. Was the alleged payment delivered in a duffel bag? A wad of cash? A wire transfer? Venmo? It’s down on the list because it’s a lower dollar amount than the $13,000-plus, but it has mysteriousness.

Ole Miss has responded affirmatively, that a booster met the family member in Oxford's airport and handed him $800. This family member is referred to throughout the NCAA's allegations and Ole Miss' response to them as "Family Member 1."

Based on everything we've known for months, this appears to be former offensive tackle Laremy Tunsil's stepfather, and Tunsil appears to be listed as "Student-Athlete 1." He personally told the NCAA about much of this.

Tunsil’s comments at least year’s NFL draft helped lead to this second round of allegations, but Tunsil isn’t apparently involved in them.

6. A trio of Ole Miss assistants cheated in recruiting six players in 2010.
This focuses mostly on Vaughn and Saunders, the alleged ACT fixers, but also on current assistant Derrick Nix. (Ole Miss agrees Vaughn and Saunders were involved but says the NCAA has overstated Nix's involvement.) In total, the NCAA says $1,750 in impermissible benefits reached six recruits.

The aim of the help, according to the NCAA, was to help the recruits with transportation to a summer class that would aid their eligibility status. Ole Miss is in trouble for helping recruits get to class.

7. Players got a lot of help with car loans.
All under one allegation, the NCAA outlines four automobile-related charges occurring between 2014 and 2015. They're all boring, relating to plumb loan deals players got on cars.

Three of the four are against Student-Athlete 1, Tunsil. There's one other car allegation against a non-Tunsil player.

The NCAA estimates the car arrangements resulted in $7,495 of impermissible benefits altogether. Ole Miss agrees this happened.

8. A booster with a store gave stuff away.
9. A booster with a restaurant gave stuff away.

The NCAA’s new allegations include these. Both are Level I allegations, though the store owner’s “merchandise” was reportedly worth $2,800 and the restaurant owner only gave away a few hundred bucks’ worth of food, drinks, and cash, the NCAA believes. If you’re going to be a booster, I guess you might as well spread the love?

10. Ole Miss made personalized hype videos for recruits.
The NCAA claims Freeze, in 2013, directed a video staffer to take pictures of recruits in the Rebels' indoor practice facility, wearing official team apparel, and then had the pictures incorporated into "commercial-style" videos to be played for recruits and their families while they were on visits. This seems like a silly way to get tripped up.

11. A current assistant helped link recruits with a booster who gave impermissible benefits.
Ole Miss accepts that a booster who also volunteered at a local high school gave several recruits what amounted to $2,250 worth of "recruiting inducements," including lodging, transportation, and meals.


Maurice Harris, still an Ole Miss assistant, facilitated $485 of that and knew of the booster's relationship with prospects, the NCAA estimates.

12. Ole Miss put up a player's family members in hotels and rental properties.
Ole Miss admits to $2,253 of extra benefits having gone out to a player's family (and an associated boyfriend) in the form of free lodging around Oxford. I can’t muster the energy to care about this.

13. Former assistant Chris Kiffin let some player sleep on his couch without demanding $33 in payment.
We've got a real bombshell here.

It is alleged that in the summer of 2013, the former assistant coach provided an unnamed player with two nights' lodging at his residence.

There are a lot of questions. Did the player sleep in a bed? On a couch? On an air mattress? Was there a TV in the room? If so, how many inches was it? It's fascinating that the NCAA devoted hours to figuring out the per-night value of a stay in a coach's home.

Ole Miss agrees this happened.

14. A former staffer set up lodging and transportation for recruits.
This is the same staffer from item No. 1. The benefits were worth more than $2,000, and they make up one of the many Level I allegations. It’s against the rules, but it’s hard to get outraged about it.

15. Kiffin talked to two high school players in an office when he wasn't allowed.
Ole Miss agrees Kiffin spent 10 minutes speaking privately with two players about their recruitment at a high school in the spring of 2014.

Neither committed to Ole Miss, and Kiffin was banned from doing off-campus recruiting for 30 days, which sounds like a reward.

16. A current staffer had impermissible off-campus contact with a recruit.
Yawning.

17. Kiffin had Ole Miss give benefits to a man who wasn't a player's "real" father, but a "father figure."
NCAA rules permit schools to pay for things when recruits take one of their five "official" visits to a campus, and those benefits extend to legal guardians.

One recruit came to Ole Miss with a man whom Kiffin viewed as the player's father, but was not his biological father. Kiffin "failed to make the distinction clear," Ole Miss says, and so the man and his wife received meals and lodging.

The NCAA calls this a Level II violation, but Ole Miss wants it to be a lesser Level III and cites precedent to that effect.

18 and 19. The NCAA says Vaughn and Saunders, once they were already gone from Ole Miss, lied to investigators and weren't fully cooperative.
Two allegations are lumped into one.

Both Vaughn and Saunders deny they were involved in the fixing of ACT scores, and the NCAA claims it has evidence that illustrates they're not telling the truth. The NCAA also says Vaughn had inappropriate contact with enforcement investigators in 2013.

Ole Miss isn't taking any position, because both men were out of the program by the time the actions may or may not have occurred. This feels like an offshoot of the more serious allegations.

20. Freeze didn’t live up to his responsibilities as head coach.
You don’t say, NCAA?

21. A player went hunting on a booster’s private land while a recruit, then a few more times after he signed at Ole Miss.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: kidrobinski
And coached his way to a 32-32 record instead of 39-25? And, say, 15-25 in conference instead of 19-21.

Would we still be interested?

For that matter, why are we supposed to be enamored with a guy who had a losing record in the conference, even with rampant cheating?
What if OJ hadn't killed Nicole and Ron Goldman? Who cares, he did. I like the idea of Freeze, but my guess is that Sankey and the SEC is going to kibosh the s**t out of this possible hire.
 
Not sure if serious or not, but while some were pretty petty, there were also some pretty heavy allegations and penalties under his watch. He would have had to have been obtuse not to know what was going on. This does not even take into account the escort services, etc... I remember seeing text messages from coaches about paying players, etc...Don't be surprised if the NCAA comes snooping if we do decide to go this route.

Ole Miss athletic director Ross Bjork says the school will vacate 33 football wins from six seasons between 2010 and 2016 after using ineligible players during games.

The punishment stems from 15 Level I violation under former head coach Hugh Freeze, which included recruiting and academic violations.

The school will vacate four wins from the 2010 season, two from 2011, seven each from the 2012 and 2015 seasons, eight from 2014 and five from 2016. The vacated wins are treated as if they never took place.

Freeze's record at Ole Miss, which was 39–25 during his five seasons, now stands officially at 12–25.

As a result of the NCAA investigation, Ole Miss received a two-year postseason ban, three years of probation and was stripped of scholarships over four years.

Freeze, who resigned from Ole Miss in 2017, is now the head coach at Liberty

Boosters paid at least $13,000 to a recruit who later spurned them.
That’s what the NCAA says a couple of Ole Miss boosters did. In its new batch, the NCAA alleges a former Rebel staffer set up a couple of boosters with a recruit, and those boosters furnished the player with between $13,000 and $15,600 in cash between April 2014 and February 2015. And then the recruit didn’t even go there.

2. Two former Ole Miss assistants helped fix recruits' ACT scores.
Before the Rebels’ alleged failed Bag Man attempt, this was the top of the ticket, as part of the NCAA’s initial 13 allegations last year.

The NCAA says previous assistants Chris Vaughn and David Saunders instructed recruits to take the ACT college entry exam at a specific high school in Wayne County, Miss., in 2010.

Vaughn and Saunders instructed the recruits to leave blank any answer spaces they weren't confident about, the NCAA says. This would allow correct answers to be filled in later, presumably so they'd qualify at Ole Miss.


As a result, the NCAA says three Ole Miss players competed while they weren't eligible in 2011, and one continued to play while ineligible for three more seasons.

Ole Miss agreed testing fraud happened, though the school was light on details.

3. Ole Miss demonstrated a lack of institutional control.
This is a big one. The NCAA says “institutional” control describes “the efforts institutions make to comply with NCAA legislation and to detect and investigate violations that do occur.” To say you’ve “lacked” it is to say you haven’t cared about rules, and it can be a pretext for a hammering.

The LOIC is an evolved form, according to Ole Miss, of a “failure to monitor” charge the NCAA had previously announced. Ole Miss is contesting it.

4. A former staffer knowingly broke rules and lied to everyone about it.
The staffer the NCAA believes set up the big payment to the recruit is charged with trampling over NCAA regulations. Ole Miss says that staffer lied to the school, too. It’s juicy in the same way perjury is juicy in actual courts.

5. An Ole Miss booster gave a player’s family member $800 in cash in August 2014.
The juice depends mostly on the means of transfer. Was the alleged payment delivered in a duffel bag? A wad of cash? A wire transfer? Venmo? It’s down on the list because it’s a lower dollar amount than the $13,000-plus, but it has mysteriousness.

Ole Miss has responded affirmatively, that a booster met the family member in Oxford's airport and handed him $800. This family member is referred to throughout the NCAA's allegations and Ole Miss' response to them as "Family Member 1."

Based on everything we've known for months, this appears to be former offensive tackle Laremy Tunsil's stepfather, and Tunsil appears to be listed as "Student-Athlete 1." He personally told the NCAA about much of this.

Tunsil’s comments at least year’s NFL draft helped lead to this second round of allegations, but Tunsil isn’t apparently involved in them.

6. A trio of Ole Miss assistants cheated in recruiting six players in 2010.
This focuses mostly on Vaughn and Saunders, the alleged ACT fixers, but also on current assistant Derrick Nix. (Ole Miss agrees Vaughn and Saunders were involved but says the NCAA has overstated Nix's involvement.) In total, the NCAA says $1,750 in impermissible benefits reached six recruits.

The aim of the help, according to the NCAA, was to help the recruits with transportation to a summer class that would aid their eligibility status. Ole Miss is in trouble for helping recruits get to class.

7. Players got a lot of help with car loans.
All under one allegation, the NCAA outlines four automobile-related charges occurring between 2014 and 2015. They're all boring, relating to plumb loan deals players got on cars.

Three of the four are against Student-Athlete 1, Tunsil. There's one other car allegation against a non-Tunsil player.

The NCAA estimates the car arrangements resulted in $7,495 of impermissible benefits altogether. Ole Miss agrees this happened.

8. A booster with a store gave stuff away.
9. A booster with a restaurant gave stuff away.

The NCAA’s new allegations include these. Both are Level I allegations, though the store owner’s “merchandise” was reportedly worth $2,800 and the restaurant owner only gave away a few hundred bucks’ worth of food, drinks, and cash, the NCAA believes. If you’re going to be a booster, I guess you might as well spread the love?

10. Ole Miss made personalized hype videos for recruits.
The NCAA claims Freeze, in 2013, directed a video staffer to take pictures of recruits in the Rebels' indoor practice facility, wearing official team apparel, and then had the pictures incorporated into "commercial-style" videos to be played for recruits and their families while they were on visits. This seems like a silly way to get tripped up.

11. A current assistant helped link recruits with a booster who gave impermissible benefits.
Ole Miss accepts that a booster who also volunteered at a local high school gave several recruits what amounted to $2,250 worth of "recruiting inducements," including lodging, transportation, and meals.


Maurice Harris, still an Ole Miss assistant, facilitated $485 of that and knew of the booster's relationship with prospects, the NCAA estimates.

12. Ole Miss put up a player's family members in hotels and rental properties.
Ole Miss admits to $2,253 of extra benefits having gone out to a player's family (and an associated boyfriend) in the form of free lodging around Oxford. I can’t muster the energy to care about this.

13. Former assistant Chris Kiffin let some player sleep on his couch without demanding $33 in payment.
We've got a real bombshell here.

It is alleged that in the summer of 2013, the former assistant coach provided an unnamed player with two nights' lodging at his residence.

There are a lot of questions. Did the player sleep in a bed? On a couch? On an air mattress? Was there a TV in the room? If so, how many inches was it? It's fascinating that the NCAA devoted hours to figuring out the per-night value of a stay in a coach's home.

Ole Miss agrees this happened.

14. A former staffer set up lodging and transportation for recruits.
This is the same staffer from item No. 1. The benefits were worth more than $2,000, and they make up one of the many Level I allegations. It’s against the rules, but it’s hard to get outraged about it.

15. Kiffin talked to two high school players in an office when he wasn't allowed.
Ole Miss agrees Kiffin spent 10 minutes speaking privately with two players about their recruitment at a high school in the spring of 2014.

Neither committed to Ole Miss, and Kiffin was banned from doing off-campus recruiting for 30 days, which sounds like a reward.

16. A current staffer had impermissible off-campus contact with a recruit.
Yawning.

17. Kiffin had Ole Miss give benefits to a man who wasn't a player's "real" father, but a "father figure."
NCAA rules permit schools to pay for things when recruits take one of their five "official" visits to a campus, and those benefits extend to legal guardians.

One recruit came to Ole Miss with a man whom Kiffin viewed as the player's father, but was not his biological father. Kiffin "failed to make the distinction clear," Ole Miss says, and so the man and his wife received meals and lodging.

The NCAA calls this a Level II violation, but Ole Miss wants it to be a lesser Level III and cites precedent to that effect.

18 and 19. The NCAA says Vaughn and Saunders, once they were already gone from Ole Miss, lied to investigators and weren't fully cooperative.
Two allegations are lumped into one.

Both Vaughn and Saunders deny they were involved in the fixing of ACT scores, and the NCAA claims it has evidence that illustrates they're not telling the truth. The NCAA also says Vaughn had inappropriate contact with enforcement investigators in 2013.

Ole Miss isn't taking any position, because both men were out of the program by the time the actions may or may not have occurred. This feels like an offshoot of the more serious allegations.

20. Freeze didn’t live up to his responsibilities as head coach.
You don’t say, NCAA?

21. A player went hunting on a booster’s private land while a recruit, then a few more times after he signed at Ole Miss.
Hugh Freeze won the SUGAR BOWL at Ole Miss and in year two has Liberty undefeated and Ranked in the Top 25.
 
Whatever Hugh Freeze did at Ole Miss besides winning and changing the culture is "old news". Liberty U (Jerry Falwell) gave him a 2nd chance and boy has he delivered. If he beats NC State this week, Liberty will stay undefeated at 9-0 and also 3-0 in the ACC (maybe Liberty belongs in the ACC Championship game). We all know that Alabama, Auburn, and LSU play by the rules and would never do anything underhanded. ;) I definitely could go with Heupel, Freeze, and Napier (and maybe even Chadwell). Big matchup in final game on December 5th between potentially undefeated teams Liberty and Coastal Carolina. Winner may get a new job!

Chadwell is already a game up, he and Chants beat Napier this year
 
Boy, Im just glad Florida hired Muskrat instead of Freeze. Can you imagine how dominant they would be right now with all that talent? Probably would have eclipsed Spurrier by now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LBGCOCK
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT