Who on here remembers Richard Williams?

[ScWildthing61]

Former Mississippi St. basketball coach, led the Bulldogs to a surprise final four in 1996. Two years later in 1998, he was fired the bulldogs had losing seasons in the sec both years, and overall at least one of the two years if not both. Not sure if he ever coached again. This is why the whole "give Frank more time, it's too soon after his final four" does not wash. Like Mississippi St, Carolina's final four run was an unexpected outlier, not an expected norm. You have to look at Martin's overall body of work combined with the surge the rest of the sec is experiencing in both coaching and recruiting and conclude USC is being left behind.

 

[king ward]

Received as information.

 

[Gamecockben1979]

Former Mississippi St. basketball coach, led the Bulldogs to a surprise final four in 1996. Two years later in 1998, he was fired the bulldogs had losing seasons in the sec both years, and overall at least one of the two years if not both. Not sure if he ever coached again. This is why the whole "give Frank more time, it's too soon after his final four" does not wash. Like Mississippi St, Carolina's final four run was an unexpected outlier, not an expected norm. You have to look at Martin's overall body of work combined with the surge the rest of the sec is experiencing in both coaching and recruiting and conclude USC is being left behind.

To be fair in what way did firing Williams help Mississippi State basketball from 1998-2019?

 

[anon_n4c0cp5zhdxn7]

Former Mississippi St. basketball coach, led the Bulldogs to a surprise final four in 1996. Two years later in 1998, he was fired the bulldogs had losing seasons in the sec both years, and overall at least one of the two years if not both. Not sure if he ever coached again. This is why the whole "give Frank more time, it's too soon after his final four" does not wash. Like Mississippi St, Carolina's final four run was an unexpected outlier, not an expected norm. You have to look at Martin's overall body of work combined with the surge the rest of the sec is experiencing in both coaching and recruiting and conclude USC is being left behind.

Outlier?

14-18, 4-14 SEC
14-20, 5-13 SEC
17-16, 6-12 SEC
25-9, 11-7 SEC
26-11, 12-6 SEC
17-16, 7-11 SEC

Until last year, he was improving the team EVERY year. Not sure why people keep trying to rewrite history.

 

[Gradstudent]

According to wiki

After leaving MSU, he coached the Memphis Houn'Dawgs of the ABA and the Jackson Rage of the WBA. and coached for a time at his alma mater, Pearl High School. He served as the Director of Basketball Administration at UAB in 2008 and in 2009 he was named the Director of Basketball Administration and Program Coordinator for the Louisiana Tech men’s basketball team on a volunteer basis.

Williams was an assistant coach for Arkansas State under former LSU Head Coach John Brady. Williams will be serving as the Color Commentator for theMississippi State Bulldogs basketball team's radio broadcasts with Jim Ellis, starting in the 2014–15 season.

 

[king ward]

I see great similarities, except they apparently fired Williams at the first sign of collapse. They knew their previous success with him had been a fluke.

 

[Art__Vandelay]

Outlier?

14-18, 4-14 SEC
14-20, 5-13 SEC
17-16, 6-12 SEC
25-9, 11-7 SEC
26-11, 12-6 SEC
17-16, 7-11 SEC

Until last year, he was improving the team EVERY year. Not sure why people keep trying to rewrite history.

Ehhh-

I'm not sure you can say that since we will have only made the tournament once in his 7 seasons.

-No improvement 13 to 14
-Marginal improvement 14 to 15
-Big improvement 15 to 16
-Marginal improvement 16 to 17 then a huge tourney run
-Huge drop off 17 to 18
-Looking to be a drop off from 18 to 19.

 

[anon_n4c0cp5zhdxn7]

Ehhh-

I'm not sure you can say that since we will have only made the tournament once in his 7 seasons.

-No improvement 13 to 14
-Marginal improvement 14 to 15
-Big improvement 15 to 16
-Marginal improvement 16 to 17 then a huge tourney run
-Huge drop off 17 to 18
-Looking to be a drop off from 18 to 19.

If that is your one and only measuring stick, you are correct, 1 tournament in 7 years. I also see 4-14, 5-13, 6-12, 11-7, 12-6 in SEC play. 4-14 to 12-6? How can you not say he improved the program over those years?

 

[Silverspur02]

Ehhh-

I'm not sure you can say that since we will have only made the tournament once in his 7 seasons.

-No improvement 13 to 14
-Marginal improvement 14 to 15
-Big improvement 15 to 16
-Marginal improvement 16 to 17 then a huge tourney run
-Huge drop off 17 to 18
-Looking to be a drop off from 18 to 19.

Here's another comparison:

11-14
20–8
19–9 NIT First Round
14–11
9–17
17-13
10-17
11-17

Fire him???

 

[Pressrocks]

That 25-9 team had like a 17-1 start or something close but no considered quality wins in pre-conference and got shut out of NCAA tournament. Very disappointing. Had quality opponents scheduled this year but unable to knock them off

 

[Art__Vandelay]

If that is your one and only measuring stick, you are correct, 1 tournament in 7 years. I also see 4-14, 5-13, 6-12, 11-7, 12-6 in SEC play. 4-14 to 12-6? How can you not say he improved the program over those years?

No you're right.. I hear you on that. We're in a much better spot than we were in 2013.

We improved steadily from 13-17, aided mightily by the presence of two 4* players from SC. Upon their departure we have declined pretty swiftly from our 2016 and 2017 teams. Almost feels like 2014 and 2015 in football.

I guess it's just hard to accept that in 7 years we've only had 2, maybe 3 (if you count this year) tournament-quality teams and have only made it once. Did we reach a ceiling in 2016 and 2017?

 

[Art__Vandelay]

Here's another comparison:

11-14
20–8
19–9 NIT First Round
14–11
9–17
17-13
10-17
11-17

Fire him???

I gotta be honest.. I'm not sure what these numbers are.

 

[Silverspur02]

I gotta be honest.. I'm not sure what these numbers are.

You don't understand won loss records??? I just didn't add Conference record like johnnyplad's post you responded to.

 

[anon_n4c0cp5zhdxn7]

No you're right.. I hear you on that. We're in a much better spot than we were in 2013.

We improved steadily from 13-17, aided mightily by the presence of two 4* players from SC. Upon their departure we have declined pretty swiftly from our 2016 and 2017 teams. Almost feels like 2014 and 2015 in football.

I guess it's just hard to accept that in 7 years we've only had 2, maybe 3 (if you count this year) tournament-quality teams and have only made it once. Did we reach a ceiling in 2016 and 2017?

I hope not. The only thing that has gotten me through this season is how much I like our freshman class. I believe they will be a good team.

 

[anon_n4c0cp5zhdxn7]

Funny thing about this comparison of Frank Martin and Richard Williams, I don't think Williams was fired. Everything I've read online says he resigned. Rumors are it was unrelated to the basketball program, possibly some extracurricular activity.

 

[Art__Vandelay]

You don't understand won loss records??? I just didn't add Conference record like johnnyplad's post you responded to.

Whose "won loss records" are they? Maybe a little explanation of just random numbers would help clear things up

 

[Art__Vandelay]

I hope not. The only thing that has gotten me through this season is how much I like our freshman class. I believe they will be a good team.

I agree. They could be another Sin/PJ combo in a couple of years.

 

[northGAcock]

Did he go by Dick? Don't remember him by that name.

 

[Silverspur02]

Whose "won loss records" are they? Maybe a little explanation of just random numbers would help clear things up

Since you didn't think Frank was showing sufficient improvement, I posted the won - loss records of another coach.

Using the same criteria that you judge Frank with, do you hire, fire, OR even retain this said coach??

 

[Art__Vandelay]

Since you didn't think Frank was showing sufficient improvement, I posted the won - loss records of another coach.

Using the same criteria that you judge Frank with, do you hire, fire, OR even retain this said coach??

Got it, got it, got it....

Yes.. I think you definitely fire the coach with those records. Pretty abysmal.

I’m guessing there’s some catch and I’m going to regret saying that?

 

[Silverspur02]

Got it, got it, got it....

Yes.. I think you definitely fire the coach with those records. Pretty abysmal.

I’m guessing there’s some catch and I’m going to regret saying that?

Mike Krzyzewski...

First five were @Army..

Then Duke hired him and bottom three were first three seasons at Duke...

I think you know the rest of the story...

 

[mirbird]

Mike Krzyzewski...

First five were @Army..

Then Duke hired him and bottom three were first three seasons at Duke...

I think you know the rest of the story...

There is usually an exception to most rules. Otherwise we are all Einsteins due to the fact that we are all born from mothers....

 

[mirbird]

So there.

 

[bdblack]

He did a heckuva job with Venus and Serena, no doubt about that!

 

[Silverspur02]

View embedded media

So there.

After watching this video, do you feel that Michigan lost the game because of lack of offensive rebounding???

 

[Art__Vandelay]

Mike Krzyzewski...

First five were @Army..

Then Duke hired him and bottom three were first three seasons at Duke...

I think you know the rest of the story...

haha pretty wild, I must admit. More surprised he got the Duke job with that performance at Army. I guess Duke was good but not really the giant they are now Pre-K? Looks like their first 'ship was in '91.

 

[85alum#]

So MSU fired their coach, what was their record the years after they fired him? Did they suddenly improve?

 

[Gamecockben1979]

So MSU fired their coach, what was their record the years after they fired him? Did they suddenly improve?

I asked basically the same thing earlier. All you will get is crickets.....

 

[ScWildthing61]

So MSU fired their coach, what was their record the years after they fired him? Did they suddenly improve?

I asked basically the same thing earlier. All you will get is crickets.....

I'm sure if either of you were dying to know you could have looked it up but to help you out, in place of Richard Williams Mississippi State hired Rick Stansbury. Maybe that name rings a bell to you maybe it doesn't, 4 years after that hire Mississippi State won the SEC tournament a year later they appeared in the title game again they want another SEC tournament in 2009 followed by an appearance in the championship game yet again in 2010. Meanwhile the best South Carolina could muster in that entire period was 1 championship appearance in 2006. The Bulldogs play the NCAA tournament appearances in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, and 2009. And when the Stansbury regime started to go stale, they went out and replaced him with Ben Howland. The jury is still out on the Howland move, but replacing Williams with Stansbury when they did, turned out to be a good move for them.

 

[Gamecockben1979]

I'm sure if either of you were dying to know you could have looked it up but to help you out, in place of Richard Williams Mississippi State hired Rick Stansbury. Maybe that name rings a bell to you maybe it doesn't 4 years after that hire Mississippi State won the SEC tournament a year later they appeared in the title game again they want another SEC tournament in 2009 followed by an appearance in the championship game yet again in 2010. Meanwhile the best South Carolina could muster in that entire period was 1 championship appearance in 2006. The Bulldogs play the NCAA tournament appearances in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, and 2009. And when the Stansbury regime started to go stale, they went out and replaced him with Ben Howland. The jury is still out on the Howland move, but replacing Williams with Stansbury when they did, turned out to be a good move for them.

How many sweet 16s or final 4s did Stansbury lead Miss State to after they fired Williams? Williams had done both....

I’ll give you a hint: it’s the same number of final fours we’ve had at USC prior to Frank Martin: 0

 

[anon_n4c0cp5zhdxn7]

I'm sure if either of you were dying to know you could have looked it up but to help you out, in place of Richard Williams Mississippi State hired Rick Stansbury. Maybe that name rings a bell to you maybe it doesn't, 4 years after that hire Mississippi State won the SEC tournament a year later they appeared in the title game again they want another SEC tournament in 2009 followed by an appearance in the championship game yet again in 2010. Meanwhile the best South Carolina could muster in that entire period was 1 championship appearance in 2006. The Bulldogs play the NCAA tournament appearances in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, and 2009. And when the Stansbury regime started to go stale, they went out and replaced him with Ben Howland. The jury is still out on the Howland move, but replacing Williams with Stansbury when they did, turned out to be a good move for them.

Except, Mississippi State DIDN'T fire Richard Williams, did they? I'm sure you're hoping that fact gets lost after all the time you spent researching this in an attempt to justify firing FM. We have GREAT fans!

 

[ScWildthing61]

How many sweet 16s or final 4s did Stansbury lead Miss State to after they fired Williams? Williams had done both....

I’ll give you a hint: it’s the same number of final fours we’ve had at USC prior to Frank Martin: 0

Again proving my point that the final four is an outlier and not a norm. How many SEC tournament titles did Stansbury win at Mississippi State; 2, how many regular season titles 1,now let's do a little math how many Tournaments has Frank Martin won subtract 2 from the total Stansbury won at Mississippi State and you have your answer. He's also managed multiple NCAA tournament appearances over that period at Mississippi State, which is more than any coach of South Carolina's done in a very long time. Which tells me they had success on a consistent basis under him, rather than one fluke run covered by a bunch of nothing.

 

[Gamecockben1979]

Again proving my point that the final four is an outlier and not a norm. How many SEC tournament titles did Stansbury win at Mississippi State; 2, how many regular season titles 1,now let's do a little math how many Tournaments has Frank Martin won subtract 2 from the total Stansbury won at Mississippi State and you have your answer. He's also managed multiple NCAA tournament appearances over that period at Mississippi State, which is more than any coach of South Carolina's done in a very long time. Which tells me they had success on a consistent basis under him, rather than one fluke run covered by a bunch of nothing.

We can agree to disagree. The final 4 is never going to “be the norm” here. You value SEC titles (Stansbury) over Sweet 16 and Final 4 runs (Williams and Martin). You choose to believe the final 4 run was a fluke. I choose to believe beating Marquette, Duke, Baylor, Florida and giving Gonzaga a great game was good coaching.

Martins first two years were charity years. He inherited a dumpster fire from Darrin Horn that John Wooden would’ve been lucky to turn around. He successfully recruited PJ Dozier and Sindarius Thornwell. The team before the final 4 run should’ve made the NCAAs. It’s not Franks fault they got screwed out of a bid. He had some poor luck between PJ Dozier leaving early and Rah Felder getting into trouble. No coach could’ve anticipated that and it’s taken some time to recover from it.

Do you not see the crappy shots Georgia put up in desperation today? They knew if our defense got set they were not scoring. Do you not see the improvement in this team? What about the improvement in guys like Silva and Gravett? Do you not see a nucleus of a couple of young players in Bryant and Lawson? Did we not just beat the Miss State program you speak so highly of? Frank Martin can flat out coach.

I get your disappointment with the non conference schedule this year. It happens. The team is improving. This team has 3 losses to the top 5 programs in the nation. Give credit where credit is due. This team could’ve packed it in a long time ago. The fact they have not and are in the top 4 in the SEC is in large part due to coaching.

 

[ScWildthing61]

We can agree to disagree. The final 4 is never going to “be the norm” here. You value SEC titles (Stansbury) over Sweet 16 and Final 4 runs (Williams and Martin). You choose to believe the final 4 run was a fluke. I choose to believe beating Marquette, Duke, Baylor, Florida and giving Gonzaga a great game was good coaching.

Martins first two years were charity years. He inherited a dumpster fire from Darrin Horn that John Wooden would’ve been lucky to turn around. He successfully recruited PJ Dozier and Sindarius Thornwell. The team before the final 4 run should’ve made the NCAAs. It’s not Franks fault they got screwed out of a bid. He had some poor luck between PJ Dozier leaving early and Rah Felder getting into trouble. No coach could’ve anticipated that and it’s taken some time to recover from it.

Do you not see the crappy shots Georgia put up in desperation today? They knew if our defense got set they were not scoring. Do you not see the improvement in this team? What about the improvement in guys like Silva and Gravett? Do you not see a nucleus of a couple of young players in Bryant and Lawson? Did we not just beat the Miss State program you speak so highly of? Frank Martin can flat out coach.

I get your disappointment with the non conference schedule this year. It happens. The team is improving. This team has 3 losses to the top 5 programs in the nation. Give credit where credit is due. This team could’ve packed it in a long time ago. The fact they have not and are in the top 4 in the SEC is in large part due to coaching.

Enjoy a close win over a bad ga team while you can, they will only get better, while sc trajects downward, enjoy the temporary placement in the top 4 while you can, the meat of the schedule is coming up and they will not remain there. If you must know what I value it is consistency over fluke runs. And when the meat of that schedule sends them in a tailspin will you say they're "improving" then? As far as the snub in 2016 one win over ga would've helped, guess the legendary Frank got out coached by a guy who is no longer there, unlike the country club in Columbia they don't settle either. Enjoy it while you can, the collapse is coming. And what has he "successfully" recruited lately?