Winning The Right Way

[Gamecawks]

In the wake of the Blackshear news, most of us have seen the posts calling for his scholarship to be pulled, because he doesn't represent the values set forth by our athletic teams at the University of South Carolina.

Let's consider these values in relation to on-field product.

Programs like Auburn, LSU, Georgia, and any Urban Meyer team are well-known for their problem athletes and yet, year after year, we see them having the most success, hoisting national championship trophies and getting into former BCS bowls.

My questions are these:

1) Is "Winning the Right Way" an antiquated notion of times gone by? Should we (or hell, can we) look the other way or make an athlete go through the public apology motions when he messes up like FSU and Winston? Or should we pull a Hyman and kick him off the team?

2) Is it possible to win National Championships without forsaking some integrity we claim to hold so closely to sports?

These are complicated questions and represent a larger ethical dilemma, and I think I can guess many of y'all's responses, but I am still curious.

Me personally, I would really love it if we could run a clean program that "wins the right way", but I'm not sure if it is at all practical in today's CFB landscape.

 

[Cackdiesel]

Originally posted by Gamecawks:
In the wake of the Blackshear news, most of us have seen the posts calling for his scholarship to be pulled, because he doesn't represent the values set forth by our athletic teams at the University of South Carolina.

Let's consider these values in relation to on-field product.

Programs like Auburn, LSU, Georgia, and any Urban Meyer team are well-known for their problem athletes and yet, year after year, we see them having the most success, hoisting national championship trophies and getting into former BCS bowls.

My questions are these:

1) Is "Winning the Right Way" an antiquated notion of times gone by? Should we (or hell, can we) look the other way or make an athlete go through the public apology motions when he messes up like FSU and Winston? Or should we pull a Hyman and kick him off the team?

2) Is it possible to win National Championships without forsaking some integrity we claim to hold so closely to sports?

These are complicated questions and represent a larger ethical dilemma, and I think I can guess many of y'all's responses, but I am still curious.

Me personally, I would really love it if we could run a clean program that "wins the right way", but I'm not sure if it is at all practical in today's CFB landscape.

I honestly don't think it's possible in football, due to the number of people on the team and the willingness to cheat by other programs.

I do think it's possible in basketball, even though Callipari doesn't make it seem that way.

 

[searooster]

I think that everyone has to develop their own position on this, but I haven't been following my Gamecocks through thick and thin for 55 years, just to accept cheating and reduced character standards in order to win. That just reduces us to the level of Clemson, who in many fans minds forfeited their only claim to a national championship due to a cheating scandal. They can rant and rail all they want but they'll never convince me that they ever were champions. Champions have character and integrity, qualities lacking in the Danny Ford teams.

 

[Gamecawks]

Originally posted by searooster:

I think that everyone has to develop their own position on this, but I haven't been following my Gamecocks through thick and thin for 55 years, just to accept cheating and reduced character standards in order to win. That just reduces us to the level of Clemson, who in many fans minds forfeited their only claim to a national championship due to a cheating scandal. They can rant and rail all they want but they'll never convince me that they ever were champions. Champions have character and integrity, qualities lacking in the Danny Ford teams.

What about the Florida teams under Urban Meyer, or the Southern Cal teams under Carroll? Granted Pete had his 2005 trophy taken away, that culture still existed during his other championships certainly.

Are we to discredit all of them? When was the last legitimate championship won?

 

[topdecktiger]

Originally posted by Gamecawks:


2) Is it possible to win National Championships without forsaking some integrity we claim to hold so closely to sports?



It's not possible to win a bowl game without forsaking some integrity, so this bridge was crossed a long time ago.

 

[gamecockjosh]

Well, we finished in the top 10 three years in a row and had a top 5 team doing it the right way. Now we may have proven that you can't sustain that level of success for more than a few years, but few teams are able to do that cheating or not cheating. Depending on how much more gas Spurrier has in the tank......I could see us making a similar run over the next few years. So I don't think it is antiquated notion to win the right way and I believe you can be successful overall.

Now can we win a national championship doing it this way? Well it's going to be tough because we are from a small state and our brand isn't strong enough to recruit nationally. I think it can get there, but I'm not sure Spurrier will be here long enough to develop that. We have to get lucky and hit the recruiting jackpot and have everything fall in place, in my opinion, to win a national title. We weren't that far off in 2013, so it is not completely unrealistic.

 

[atl-cock]

We did it in baseball. Kicking Chishenhall and Fuller off the team set us back a few years, but, IMO it was worth it.

If we can't win without cheating, regardless of sport, I'll forsake the wins.

 

[topdecktiger]

Originally posted by Gamecawks:

Granted Pete had his 2005 trophy taken away, that culture still existed during his other championships certainly.




Notice that during the national title game this year, the pregame intro features a montage of past national champions. Included in this montage was said Pete Carroll and USC beating Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl. That should be a sufficient answer to the question.

 

[ReadR00ster]

"Winning The Right Way" means different things to do different people. To me, that doesn't necessarily mean kick the guy to the curb as soon as he screws up one time. To some it does mean that. But some people are more forgiving and more tolerant, forgiveness and tolerance being things that USED to be thought of as VIRTUES.

This post was edited on 2/16 4:59 PM by ReadR00ster

 

[searooster]

All of those teams won national championships prior to the scandals referred to, but in answer to your question, yes those are tarnished trophies. I simply believe that character counts.

 

[topdecktiger]

Originally posted by ReadR00ster:
"Winning The Right Way" means different things to do different people. To me, that doesn't necessarily mean kick the guy to the curb as soon as he screws up one time. To some it does mean that. But some people are more forgiving and more tolerant, forgiveness and tolerance being things that USED to be thought of as VIRTUES.


This post was edited on 2/16 4:59 PM by ReadR00ster


The problem is tolerance and forgiveness aren't the real motivation. The real motivation is to get good ballplayers on a team, and tolerance and forgiveness are just used to deflect criticism. The other problem is that many times, the kids don't take the second chance as an example of tolerance and forgiveness. They take it as an example that they can break the rules and get away with it. It just sets the up for problems later in life (see Jameis Winston).

 

[Rollerdude123]

Agree.

College sports is a business.

I know people of all stripes that seem to care more about their favorite college team than they do their family - and yes- I'm serious.

I know too many men with families- that spend every waking hour worried, concerned, talking about their favorite sports team. Their facebook profiles are filled with posts about their favorite sports team. Some of them you wouldn't even know they were married or had kids because they focus on sports every waking second.

When people and fans are like that- coaches and schools are going to cheat if they can. They are going to turn the other way- if they can get away with it.



Originally posted by topdecktiger:

The problem is tolerance and forgiveness aren't the real motivation. The real motivation is to get good ballplayers on a team, and tolerance and forgiveness are just used to deflect criticism. The other problem is that many times, the kids don't take the second chance as an example of tolerance and forgiveness. They take it as an example that they can break the rules and get away with it. It just sets the up for problems later in life (see Jameis Winston).

 

[ClemsonGentleman]

Originally posted by gamecockjosh:

Well, we finished in the top 10 three years in a row and had a top 5 team doing it the right way. Now we may have proven that you can't sustain that level of success for more than a few years, but few teams are able to do that cheating or not cheating. Depending on how much more gas Spurrier has in the tank......I could see us making a similar run over the next few years. So I don't think it is antiquated notion to win the right way and I believe you can be successful overall.

Now can we win a national championship doing it this way? Well it's going to be tough because we are from a small state and our brand isn't strong enough to recruit nationally. I think it can get there, but I'm not sure Spurrier will be here long enough to develop that. We have to get lucky and hit the recruiting jackpot and have everything fall in place, in my opinion, to win a national title. We weren't that far off in 2013, so it is not completely unrealistic.

You were on probation two of those three years and are right now.

 

[Rock Hill Cock]

Yeah Clem, it's damn embarrassing! Players paying less than the rate posted on the back of a hotel door. That's exactly like what you did, right? One thing we need to learn from you taters is to start hiring ex-NCAA officials at high salaries. Keeps the bastards at bay hoping they'll be the next to hit that gravey train.

 

[IBleedUSC]

Because of all the cheating going on at Kstate and TCU?

Originally posted by topdecktiger:

Originally posted by Gamecawks:


2) Is it possible to win National Championships without forsaking some integrity we claim to hold so closely to sports?



It's not possible to win a bowl game without forsaking some integrity, so this bridge was crossed a long time ago.

 

[IBleedUSC]

Yeah for trumped up charges compared to what clempson did in the 80s and what uncheat did recently.

 

[ReadR00ster]

Originally posted by topdecktiger:

Originally posted by ReadR00ster:
"Winning The Right Way" means different things to do different people. To me, that doesn't necessarily mean kick the guy to the curb as soon as he screws up one time. To some it does mean that. But some people are more forgiving and more tolerant, forgiveness and tolerance being things that USED to be thought of as VIRTUES.


This post was edited on 2/16 4:59 PM by ReadR00ster


The problem is tolerance and forgiveness aren't the real motivation. The real motivation is to get good ballplayers on a team, and tolerance and forgiveness are just used to deflect criticism. The other problem is that many times, the kids don't take the second chance as an example of tolerance and forgiveness. They take it as an example that they can break the rules and get away with it. It just sets the up for problems later in life (see Jameis Winston).

Maybe... OR... They learn their lesson and turn their life around and become better people and they teach people who are on the wrong road to get on the right road and become GOOD model citizens. It's the role of universities to help people better themselves. Teach them better way that they were not exposed to growing up in harsh environments. If you don't want to take that chance on someone like that, than that is your prerogative, but if someone else wants to give someone a chance to kid to grow up and be a man and redeem themselves,than it's not for you anyone else to say. This is a common situation that the University has dealt with for years. They will use that experience to deal with it they deem fit and to hell with what anyone else thinks about it.

And why bring up Jameis Winston? That is probably the worst example I can think of for that argument. Jameis doesn't have any problems. He is poised to be drafted the number 1 draft pick. He doesn't have any court dates. He may be immature as heck, but things are looking very bright for him.

 

[ReadR00ster]

duplicate.
This post was edited on 2/16 10:49 PM by ReadR00ster

 

[Cutlass275]

I personally will take a win or two less doing things the right way. I use that filthy liar, cheater and felony committing scam newton as a prime example. I would rather have a .500 year with a low tier or no bowl game than win a NC with a person like that on the team. Same with the tainted so called NC that clemson won. Rather go .500 than win like that! And I mean this.

But I guess you guys understand what the deeper problem is here right? There doesn't seem to be enough players of integrity, ie, high school kids that can stay out of trouble, to go around to all the teams that want/need them. And this takes us to an even deeper problem in our society today...




This post was edited on 2/16 10:57 PM by Cutlass275

 

[Gamecawks]

I think it's kind of easy to say that we'd rather be bad than have a Cam Newton type on our team and win a NC because it's a hypothetical scenario.

But if it actually happened in real life I think we'd all be more than content with winning the NC if it meant having a Cam Newton.

 

[ReadR00ster]

Originally posted by Cutlass275:
I personally will take a win or two less doing things the right way. I use that filthy liar, cheater and felony committing scam newton as a prime example. I would rather have a .500 year with a low tier or no bowl game than win a NC with a person like that on the team. Same with the tainted so called NC that clemson won. Rather go .500 than win like that! And I mean this.

But I guess you guys understand what the deeper problem is here right? There doesn't seem to be enough players of integrity, ie, high school kids that can stay out of trouble, to go around to all the teams that want/need them. And this takes us to an even deeper problem in our society today...




This post was edited on 2/16 10:57 PM by Cutlass275

Kids that are raised constantly being around crime are going to commit crimes. It's not a valid excuse, but it is not fair to them and think they deserve a chance some times to see how they react once taught a better way without having to throw their dreams away for the stupid life decisions they made while they were kids. Some times, kids do nee to learn the hard way, but that doesn't mean you always try that tact. I think he should be punished. I would have him go to prep school and do community service for his crimes. that should be enough punishment.
This post was edited on 2/17 1:51 AM by ReadR00ster

 

[FORKCOCK]

Last year, I couldn't watch an FSU game without feeling dirty.

I don't want to ever feel that way when watching us play.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[1SGgamecock]

Actually, more like integrity and honesty.I'm 53 yrs old and can't remember when tolerance of criminal behavior was a virtue. Maybe more today then the past. 30 yrs ago would jail time.

 

[Rollerdude123]

People that steal that aren't athletes are looked at one way- pretty much scum


athletes that steal - but that can potentially help out a favorite team- are looked at much different by fans.

 

[Cutlass275]

Originally posted by Gamecawks:
I think it's kind of easy to say that we'd rather be bad than have a Cam Newton type on our team and win a NC because it's a hypothetical scenario.

But if it actually happened in real life I think we'd all be more than content with winning the NC if it meant having a Cam Newton.

You are completely wrong in your assessment. At least for me and many others. I was in the stands when the first Tampa Bay Buc teams played their first ever games. I love the Bucs; Dewey, Leroy, Bell, Eckwood...loved that team and their fighting spirit. A couple years later I wore the beautiful orange uniform of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers (yea I said it, beautiful uniforms!), albeit briefly. But I will tell you something, if that scum rapist Winston is picked first by them, I will disassociate myself from that team until he is gone. Standards and integrity still mean something to some of us. (And please don't give me that "he wasn't charged" BS, he did it, his teammates knows he did it, his scum coach knows he did it).

 

[ReadR00ster]

Originally posted by 1SGgamecock:
Actually, more like integrity and honesty.I'm 53 yrs old and can't remember when tolerance of criminal behavior was a virtue. Maybe more today then the past. 30 yrs ago would jail time.

Being tolerant doesn't mean, act like nothing happened and let them get away with it without punishment. It means cutting a young man a little slack for a first offense. It's misdemeanor larceny, no one got hurt everyone go their stuff back. They've let people into USC with a lot worse stuff on their records over the years. He should be punished as a way of reminding him that he can't continue to act like this, but there is no reason to go overboard and throw the book at the guy and completely ruin his future plans for this one stupid decision in which there was no lasting damage.

This post was edited on 2/17 12:41 PM by ReadR00ster

 

[Gamecawks]

Originally posted by Cutlass275:

Originally posted by Gamecawks:
I think it's kind of easy to say that we'd rather be bad than have a Cam Newton type on our team and win a NC because it's a hypothetical scenario.

But if it actually happened in real life I think we'd all be more than content with winning the NC if it meant having a Cam Newton.

You are completely wrong in your assessment. At least for me and many others. I was in the stands when the first Tampa Bay Buc teams played their first ever games. I love the Bucs; Dewey, Leroy, Bell, Eckwood...loved that team and their fighting spirit. A couple years later I wore the beautiful orange uniform of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers (yea I said it, beautiful uniforms!), albeit briefly. But I will tell you something, if that scum rapist Winston is picked first by them, I will disassociate myself from that team until he is gone. Standards and integrity still mean something to some of us. (And please don't give me that "he wasn't charged" BS, he did it, his teammates knows he did it, his scum coach knows he did it).

Like I said, it's really easy to take this approach because it's a metaphorical question. If your team was on the precipice of winning a national championship or super bowl or whatever, you may not feel the same way. And I don't really expect you to wrap your head around this frame of mind, since it's far removed from reality.

Are FSU fans really that different than we are? Is there something special about people that support South Carolina athletics that make us somehow more virtuous than others? That's kind of the assumption you have to make following your line of logic.

 

[Irmo Cock]

Well, whether we want to believe it or not most big schools have some of these "bag men." Here is the article if you haven't seen it. It's pretty interesting.


mash here

 

[Cutlass275]

Originally posted by Gamecawks:

Originally posted by Cutlass275:

Originally posted by Gamecawks:
I think it's kind of easy to say that we'd rather be bad than have a Cam Newton type on our team and win a NC because it's a hypothetical scenario.

But if it actually happened in real life I think we'd all be more than content with winning the NC if it meant having a Cam Newton.

You are completely wrong in your assessment. At least for me and many others. I was in the stands when the first Tampa Bay Buc teams played their first ever games. I love the Bucs; Dewey, Leroy, Bell, Eckwood...loved that team and their fighting spirit. A couple years later I wore the beautiful orange uniform of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers (yea I said it, beautiful uniforms!), albeit briefly. But I will tell you something, if that scum rapist Winston is picked first by them, I will disassociate myself from that team until he is gone. Standards and integrity still mean something to some of us. (And please don't give me that "he wasn't charged" BS, he did it, his teammates knows he did it, his scum coach knows he did it).

Like I said, it's really easy to take this approach because it's a metaphorical question. If your team was on the precipice of winning a national championship or super bowl or whatever, you may not feel the same way. And I don't really expect you to wrap your head around this frame of mind, since it's far removed from reality.

Are FSU fans really that different than we are? Is there something special about people that support South Carolina athletics that make us somehow more virtuous than others? That's kind of the assumption you have to make following your line of logic.

I realize the tv showed very enthusiastic fans on tv when FSU played, and those were ecstatic to win the NC. But I can also tell you I know several in person that are ashamed and wanted this Winston era to be over with as soon as possible. Even their own message boards had the mood of, please let him declare early and leave. I don't know alot of FSU fans that are proud of the Winston era. But then, I'm sure there is an underbelly of fans that couldn't care less about what Winston did as long as they won the NC. But don't think the FSU nation as a whole are happy about Winston, nor proud of their NC, because there are a good portion that are not.