Smart is a huge risk. Never been a head coach and he recruits at a place where 5* guys call him. If you fail as a day coordinator at Bama under Saban then you suck in the worst way. If you succeed itso because u should. Fuente has PROVEN himself. If he can win in Memphis he WILL win here. We should open the checkbook and full court press Fuente. In all honesty he may turn us down because there will be several openings and he will be high on everyone's list.
The problem with the Kirby Smart haters
- Thread starter Cbreezy33
- Start date
I actually think the transition has put us in a very good spot. We get a clean break from SOS....we hog the national spotlight, even with the other USC going through a very ugly situation....there are already multiple HC openings; we come in before the right one is snatched up....a member of the current staff is given an honest shot, and SOS was right: Elliott will have more leverage with discipline, etc....recruits who had abandoned us perhaps give us another go.
Saban, Spurrier, and about 95% of all head coaches today were at one time a huge risk and never been a head coach...
5 stars in the past with Shula didn't make those phone calls to Bama... It took coaches working the butts off to build Bama's program...
Last edited:
The ting is we cannot afford to make a mistake with this hire. Choose the wrong guy and it won't just be a couple of down years....it will be a decade of it. This will be Ray Tanners biggest decision he makes during his time at AD. His tenure will be tied to this hire when evaluating the job he did when he steps down eventually. Based on that no way I give an unknown the keys to the car.
Tanner has about 6 - 8 weeks to hire a new coach...
We should not go past 8 weeks, because of recruiting....
I don't even know where to start with this. Of course Fuente's overall record isn't great. He took over a dumpster fire and had two rebuilding seasons. The fact you're judging him on those results shows you're being intellectually dishonest about the situation. Also, why are you even talking about someone's ability to recruit on a level which they don't even participate on a weekly basis. The only thing you need to really be talking about is the fact that he took a garbage program and is turning it into a winner, regardless.
Wouldn't 8 weeks put us into the "dead period" of recruiting in December? I can't remember when that starts.
This is terrible logic. It's almost like hiring a carpenter to be a project manager simply because he worked for a bigger construction company. Saying Fuente is unproven is the dumbest thing I've heard this month. If anything, Kirby is unproven because we don't even know how much of Alabama's success he is actually responsible for. Why, if Kirby is such a great choice, haven't any other schools going after him in the last eight years?
The my question is when do they hire either Herman, or Fuente I would think someone
is talking to them already they have to be one the list Kirby reminds me of a Brad Scott
deal what has he done other than ride on Sabans back. I would have no problem with
Herman or Fuente give either one the job let's roll now give them the money if it takes
5 million a year they will come for the money give it to them now.
is talking to them already they have to be one the list Kirby reminds me of a Brad Scott
deal what has he done other than ride on Sabans back. I would have no problem with
Herman or Fuente give either one the job let's roll now give them the money if it takes
5 million a year they will come for the money give it to them now.
"dead period"???? With Social media???
We need to get the name out of the new Coach, or next year will be like this year...
I'm a "Kirby hater" because like I said elsewhere he'd only be here a few years. He'd either suck and get fired or he'd do well and leave as quickly as possible for the Georgia job. Either way Smart would never want to be at South Carolina. He wants to be at Georgia.
What "botched" transition are you referring to? Are you referring to the manner in which Spurrier left, or what has happened since he left?
Smart has only proven he can produce a quality defense in the SEC. He is totally unproven in terms of the most important functions of a head coach - building a quality efficient staff - because he has never done it. It also takes a great deal of organizational skills to be sure the entire team progresses in a unified manner. These are things Fuentes has proven. There are more significant unknowns regarding Smart at this point than Fuentes. Of course there will be a certain amount of unknowns regarding any prospective coach. Given that I think either Smart or Fuentes would be a quality choice.
Kirby may turn out to be a great coach. But he may not. And I hope USC is beyond the day of being a test lab for a prospective head coach. As I have said before in numerous threads, we have done this before. His name was Brad Scott. Their list of reasons they should be hired are almost indentical with the exception of defensive genius, as opposed to offensive genius.
As for Fuente. At least he has turned a program around, which is exactly what is needed in Columbia. And he took over a total dumpster fire at Memphis. Can he recruit at an SEC level? Who knows. But I know he evidently can recruit players that can beat Ole Miss. Maybe Kirby should take some recruiting notes and then maybe Alabama could have beaten Ole Miss themselves.
By this rationale....then Tony Levine (whose Houston team beat Memphis last year) should be the Memphis coach...and not fired from Houston. So onto Herman now....since a team Herman inherited was good enough to beat a Memphis team that has won a lot of games the last year and half....is it because of the TX talent on the roster or because of Herman?
A few years ago when we all knew in the back of our minds that Spurrier was approaching retirement, we all trusted the highly paid professionals in charge to have a plan in place for the inevitable.
Instead, our coach decided to "resign" midseason and our AD is searching for a new coach in October.
If you're a Gamecock Club member, you essentially wasted your entire 2015 contribution due to this transition. Imagine if Spurrier had retired and we announced our new coach the next day? That's how it worked for Holtz's exit.
The only reason people aren't angry right now is because we are that excited for a harder working coaching staff to take over the program. It's the first sign of hope we've had since halftime of the Texas A&M game last year.
truth be told, no one knows what the next coach will do no matter his experience. Everybody probably thought spurrier would have al least a sec championship within 10 years. Some pan out, some don't.
My point is you have to start as a head coach somewhere, and the idea that he hasn't been a head coach yet therefore won't be a good head coach now is getting old.
SEC coaches- Mark Richt - offensive coordinator for Fla State from 94-00 before becoming UGA coach- we would all agree he's done a solid job. No college head coaching experience
Jim Mccalwain (sp?) - was the offensive coordinator FOR Nick Saban before taking over Colorado State. So far so good. Two years of head coaching experience at C State- many questioned this hire.
Dan Mullen Miss State- offensive coordinator for Urban Meyer at Florida straight to Miss St.
No prior head coaching experience.
Hugh Freeze- was a high school coach for a decade before being the offensive coordinator at Arkansas state. One year as a college head coach before turning around the Ole Miss program.
Guz Malzahn- again the offensive coordinator for Auburn from 09-11... Before becoming becoming the head coach at the mighty Arkansas State for ONE year just like Hugh Freeze.
Kevin Sumlin- doing a great job at A&M - was offensive coordinator/positional coach at various big 12 and big 10 schools for 18 years. Was the Houston coach from 2008-2011. Sound familiar?
Les Miles and Nick Saban- their coaching accomplishments speak for themself. These two both had major head coaching experience before taking over LSU and Alabama. Les Miles at Oklahoma State from 2001-2004 and Nick Saban at Mich ST, LSU, and the Dolphins. LSU's hiring of Les Miles has worked out but was not such a sure thing at the time. Saban was a home run hire from day one and everyone knew it. Unfortunately as good as much as Spurrier has put us on the map we most likely can't get a sure fire home run type of guy with prior major head coaching experience.
^^ the coaches listed above are examples of good hires in my opinion (Gary Pinkel should be included as well ... Former head coach of Toledo- remind you of anyone?)
Here are the examples of BAD SEC hires in my opinion
Butch Jones- was the head coach at Central Michigan for three years before coming to Cincy to coach for a year. Has shown the ability to recruit and "show emotion" but simply cannot coach when it counts. Terrible on field coach in my opinion.
Good ole Bret at Arkansas- head coach at Wisconsin , a major successful program for seven years. To say it hasn't translated here to big boy SEC football would be an understatement. One win on the road over good ole Butch Jones.. We're both coaches were doing their best to give away the game.
Derek Mason- Vandy- this is a guy many will point to as an example of why we shouldn't hire Kirby Smart. Here's the problem- he was the defensive coordinator at Stanford for only ONE year. His personality seems to mellow and he does not have the passion nor years of experience or recruiting prowless that Kirby has... This was an odd hire from the start but a school like Vandy has to gamble and I don't blame them one bit.
Mark Stoops - I know some of you will argue this as a bad hire- I wouldn't nessecarly call it a bad hire because of the school that hired him and Stoops ability to recruit is proven. I'm not sure Kentucky could have gotten anyone much better at the time so I won't call it a bad hire- that's not fair. However I personally don't like him nor think he can coach a lick. He has zero prior head coaching experience before becoming Kentuckys coach. Despite the major recruiting he has accomplished his overall record is 11-19. I know Kentucky wasn't much of a program before he took over but your record is what it is.
In conclusion I've decided that I would be OK with Fuentes, Kirby and Herman but would probably lean towards Herman and Kirby.
- Out of the NINE "good hires" only two coaches (Les Miles and Nick Saban) had head coaching experience at a big power school prior to becoming SEC coaches.
- Mullen and Richt had ZERO
-Between Mullen, Richt, Gus, Hugh Freeze, Sumlin, Mccalwein there is only 8 years of head coaching experience before being hired. That is 8 years of head coaching experience COMBINED for six of our conferences best coaches , ZERO of which were at power conferences. 3 at Colorado State, 3 at Houston and 2 at the power Arkansas State.
Gary Pinkel was the head coach at Toledo for 5+ years before coming to the SEC- again a non major program.
Bret was a major success at Wiscy as mentioned before and considered a huge get. His success however has not even remotely transitioned to the SEC. So out of the three SEC hires that had major head coaching experience, two have worked out, one has not. Saban was a can't miss hire, and Bama and LSU are a good bit higher than us on the football tradition list. I would not go in this direction unless we can somehow get our hands on a can't miss big name (don't see this happening)
Final analysis- you clearly don't have to hire someone with major head coaching experience to make an awesome hire as the numbers above show. You do NOT have to hire a big name.
You don't HAVE to hire someone with ANY head coaching experience as Mark Richt,
Dan Mullen and to lesser extent Hugh Freeze and Gus have shown (two years combined at arky state) Kirby Smart says hi!
While hiring someone who has head coaching experience at a mid major before being hired by an SEC school doesn't have a 100 pct success rate - seeing how Butch Jones has failed (Herman, Fuentes, the Toledo coach) the probability of it working out seems to be high as Sumlin (3 years at Houston) Mccalwein (3 years at colo state) Pinkel (7 years at Toledo) have all worked out. This bodes well for the Herman and Fuentes fan club.
Hiring a coordinator from a major school isn't the big failure many on this board seem to think it is (Mullen, Richt) and really Hugh and Gus. Derek Mason has not worked out but that's a bit deceiving in my opinion as he was only the defensive coordinator for Stanford for ONE year whereas Richt and Mullen had a combined decade plus of experience. This bodes well for Kirby Smart. You also can't forget that Mason has a near impossible job of attempting to turn around the bottom feeder of the SEC- Kirby wouldn't have to do that here.
Shawn Elliot is not the guy - for every Dabo Swinney there are so so many more failures. Out of the programs that have fired or lost a coach mid season (Penn State 2011, Minnesota 2010, Arizona 2011, Colorado 2010, 2008 Clemson just for more recent examples ->> only the 2008 Clemson team retained their interim coach).
Also Shawn Elliot's rah rah emotion has been a pretty hot topic on this board. Out of the other 13 SEC schools (and this is completely up for debate- not factual like the rest of my post has been ) Mark Richt, Gary Pinkle, Gus, Hugh, Mullen, Derek Mason, are all super miled mannered. Sumlin, Les, and Saban are more intense but a professional intense- not rah rah. 5 out of the 6 miled mannered SEC coaches are good coaches. The three professionally intense coaches are all great coaches. I would consider Butch, Brent and Stoops as the only super loud emotional rah rah coaches. They seemed more concerned with showing emotion and complaining about the officiating then the actual coaching. This is for Ray Tanner and Co to consider when looking at the candidates temperaments.
^^^ I had to post this here to explain my logic behind thinking Kirby could be a good hire more thoroughly. I would be ok with all four guys.
SEC coaches- Mark Richt - offensive coordinator for Fla State from 94-00 before becoming UGA coach- we would all agree he's done a solid job. No college head coaching experience
Jim Mccalwain (sp?) - was the offensive coordinator FOR Nick Saban before taking over Colorado State. So far so good. Two years of head coaching experience at C State- many questioned this hire.
Dan Mullen Miss State- offensive coordinator for Urban Meyer at Florida straight to Miss St.
No prior head coaching experience.
Hugh Freeze- was a high school coach for a decade before being the offensive coordinator at Arkansas state. One year as a college head coach before turning around the Ole Miss program.
Guz Malzahn- again the offensive coordinator for Auburn from 09-11... Before becoming becoming the head coach at the mighty Arkansas State for ONE year just like Hugh Freeze.
Kevin Sumlin- doing a great job at A&M - was offensive coordinator/positional coach at various big 12 and big 10 schools for 18 years. Was the Houston coach from 2008-2011. Sound familiar?
Les Miles and Nick Saban- their coaching accomplishments speak for themself. These two both had major head coaching experience before taking over LSU and Alabama. Les Miles at Oklahoma State from 2001-2004 and Nick Saban at Mich ST, LSU, and the Dolphins. LSU's hiring of Les Miles has worked out but was not such a sure thing at the time. Saban was a home run hire from day one and everyone knew it. Unfortunately as good as much as Spurrier has put us on the map we most likely can't get a sure fire home run type of guy with prior major head coaching experience.
^^ the coaches listed above are examples of good hires in my opinion (Gary Pinkel should be included as well ... Former head coach of Toledo- remind you of anyone?)
Here are the examples of BAD SEC hires in my opinion
Butch Jones- was the head coach at Central Michigan for three years before coming to Cincy to coach for a year. Has shown the ability to recruit and "show emotion" but simply cannot coach when it counts. Terrible on field coach in my opinion.
Good ole Bret at Arkansas- head coach at Wisconsin , a major successful program for seven years. To say it hasn't translated here to big boy SEC football would be an understatement. One win on the road over good ole Butch Jones.. We're both coaches were doing their best to give away the game.
Derek Mason- Vandy- this is a guy many will point to as an example of why we shouldn't hire Kirby Smart. Here's the problem- he was the defensive coordinator at Stanford for only ONE year. His personality seems to mellow and he does not have the passion nor years of experience or recruiting prowless that Kirby has... This was an odd hire from the start but a school like Vandy has to gamble and I don't blame them one bit.
Mark Stoops - I know some of you will argue this as a bad hire- I wouldn't nessecarly call it a bad hire because of the school that hired him and Stoops ability to recruit is proven. I'm not sure Kentucky could have gotten anyone much better at the time so I won't call it a bad hire- that's not fair. However I personally don't like him nor think he can coach a lick. He has zero prior head coaching experience before becoming Kentuckys coach. Despite the major recruiting he has accomplished his overall record is 11-19. I know Kentucky wasn't much of a program before he took over but your record is what it is.
In conclusion I've decided that I would be OK with Fuentes, Kirby and Herman but would probably lean towards Herman and Kirby.
- Out of the NINE "good hires" only two coaches (Les Miles and Nick Saban) had head coaching experience at a big power school prior to becoming SEC coaches.
- Mullen and Richt had ZERO
-Between Mullen, Richt, Gus, Hugh Freeze, Sumlin, Mccalwein there is only 8 years of head coaching experience before being hired. That is 8 years of head coaching experience COMBINED for six of our conferences best coaches , ZERO of which were at power conferences. 3 at Colorado State, 3 at Houston and 2 at the power Arkansas State.
Gary Pinkel was the head coach at Toledo for 5+ years before coming to the SEC- again a non major program.
Bret was a major success at Wiscy as mentioned before and considered a huge get. His success however has not even remotely transitioned to the SEC. So out of the three SEC hires that had major head coaching experience, two have worked out, one has not. Saban was a can't miss hire, and Bama and LSU are a good bit higher than us on the football tradition list. I would not go in this direction unless we can somehow get our hands on a can't miss big name (don't see this happening)
Final analysis- you clearly don't have to hire someone with major head coaching experience to make an awesome hire as the numbers above show. You do NOT have to hire a big name.
You don't HAVE to hire someone with ANY head coaching experience as Mark Richt,
Dan Mullen and to lesser extent Hugh Freeze and Gus have shown (two years combined at arky state) Kirby Smart says hi!
While hiring someone who has head coaching experience at a mid major before being hired by an SEC school doesn't have a 100 pct success rate - seeing how Butch Jones has failed (Herman, Fuentes, the Toledo coach) the probability of it working out seems to be high as Sumlin (3 years at Houston) Mccalwein (3 years at colo state) Pinkel (7 years at Toledo) have all worked out. This bodes well for the Herman and Fuentes fan club.
Hiring a coordinator from a major school isn't the big failure many on this board seem to think it is (Mullen, Richt) and really Hugh and Gus. Derek Mason has not worked out but that's a bit deceiving in my opinion as he was only the defensive coordinator for Stanford for ONE year whereas Richt and Mullen had a combined decade plus of experience. This bodes well for Kirby Smart. You also can't forget that Mason has a near impossible job of attempting to turn around the bottom feeder of the SEC- Kirby wouldn't have to do that here.
Shawn Elliot is not the guy - for every Dabo Swinney there are so so many more failures. Out of the programs that have fired or lost a coach mid season (Penn State 2011, Minnesota 2010, Arizona 2011, Colorado 2010, 2008 Clemson just for more recent examples ->> only the 2008 Clemson team retained their interim coach).
Also Shawn Elliot's rah rah emotion has been a pretty hot topic on this board. Out of the other 13 SEC schools (and this is completely up for debate- not factual like the rest of my post has been ) Mark Richt, Gary Pinkle, Gus, Hugh, Mullen, Derek Mason, are all super miled mannered. Sumlin, Les, and Saban are more intense but a professional intense- not rah rah. 5 out of the 6 miled mannered SEC coaches are good coaches. The three professionally intense coaches are all great coaches. I would consider Butch, Brent and Stoops as the only super loud emotional rah rah coaches. They seemed more concerned with showing emotion and complaining about the officiating then the actual coaching. This is for Ray Tanner and Co to consider when looking at the candidates temperaments.
^^^ I had to post this here to explain my logic behind thinking Kirby could be a good hire more thoroughly. I would be ok with all four guys.
So you're saying Spurrier should have resigned "in secret" and not announced it until a new coach was in place?
Well you're clearly missing the point so let's turn this around - do you think it's ideal for a coach to resign mid season?
Do you think the AD should have a plan several years in advance when he has a 70 year old coach working for him?
If this resignation had happened at the end of last season, we could have salvaged a recruiting class. Instead we had coaches go through the motions for the past 10 months which has led us to a 3-4 (1-4 SEC) with 3 more definite losses on the schedule (one of which will be a 25+ beat down by our rival).
Like I said before - resigning mid season is actually better than continuing to "coach" - Tanner can make up for this unnecessary implosion of our football program by doing all he can to bring Coach Herman to USC.
What point am I missing? Yeah ideally spurrier leaves last season, but he didn't. Tanner did not talk him into staying. There's no way Tanner could have had someone in place to take over now. Are you saying Spurrier should have been fired, so that a plan could have been put in place?
Cbreezy.....True. All those guys are assistantS that made it. But I could wear out this cell listing the many that haven't. And I don't have the next day, or so, to take the time to list them for you.
And is there some joke in the fact that you led off your list with Mark Richt? At a shingle school that annually recruits in the top ten. Yet always manages to lose two, or three, crucial games every year. Hell, you can plug just about any high school coach in the country in at Georgia and they are going to win 8 just by rolling the balls out. I'm glad he is down there. His lack of coaching to his talent has led to a couple of unexpected Gamecock wins.
So no, I am not in the lets go hire the hot assistant club. Hopefully the program has progressed to the point the last few years where we don't have to hope the guy is a head coach. Some guys are great head coaches, some are just great assistants. When that line gets blurred, that's when you get in trouble.
And is there some joke in the fact that you led off your list with Mark Richt? At a shingle school that annually recruits in the top ten. Yet always manages to lose two, or three, crucial games every year. Hell, you can plug just about any high school coach in the country in at Georgia and they are going to win 8 just by rolling the balls out. I'm glad he is down there. His lack of coaching to his talent has led to a couple of unexpected Gamecock wins.
So no, I am not in the lets go hire the hot assistant club. Hopefully the program has progressed to the point the last few years where we don't have to hope the guy is a head coach. Some guys are great head coaches, some are just great assistants. When that line gets blurred, that's when you get in trouble.
^^^ do you know something I don't? Do you know that either Vanderbilt or Smart had interest in the job? Do you think Smart would wanna take a position with an SEC school he has no shot succeeding at? Half of this board is awesome and insightful, the other half rejects ideas that have actual facts with them- with short snartass responded. I guess I shouldn't expect anything less when I see threads started that suggest we should go after Butch Davis and Bud Foster.
Kirby Smart is as good of a hire as the other major candidates. He has nothing about him that makes him more of a sure thing than the others.
For every con, he's got a pro that counters a con of the other candidates.
For every doubt, there is a hope...and that's the same with the other candidates.
To me, this coaching decision starts and ends with recruiting. If he can't bring in the talent to compete with the big boys, his coaching will only go so far. And I'm not talking 5*s vs 4*s. I mean a guy that has a good eye for talent and who can go out and get the players he NEEDS for his offense/defense to succeed...that's INFINITELY more important than signing all 5*s.
We know Smart can recruit this area...no doubt about it. People say that it's because of Bama and Saban but SOS and his staff have won some big recruiting battles for SC even with the retirement ??? hanging over their heads. And I believe that if you couple a TOTAL financial and philosophical support system from The REAL USC with a top notch coach and recruiter like Smart, he sells a LOT of kids on SC...why not? It's not like they won't already be on TV every week...and they may have a shot at being the best player in SC history if they bring a Natty to SC...
I think KS is a legit option. I think his defense will make this team better immediately. His recruiting will give SC a lot more to work with...my only question is his choice in OC...if he assembles an AllStar Offensive Staff to go with an outstanding Defense, he's the favorite...
So for anyone suggesting that Smart wouldn't succeed here, that's about as accurate as saying Herman or Fuente would be guaranteed to succeed. All have some sort of risk or gamble associated with them...for me, it's about what gives us a better chance to win on a consistent basis. A great coach can take a team with decent talent and consistently get to bowl games. A good coach who is a great RECRUITER has a chance to win it ALL every year.
Got to have the talent to get over the National Championship Hump...once you've done that, everything gets a whole lot easier.
For every con, he's got a pro that counters a con of the other candidates.
For every doubt, there is a hope...and that's the same with the other candidates.
To me, this coaching decision starts and ends with recruiting. If he can't bring in the talent to compete with the big boys, his coaching will only go so far. And I'm not talking 5*s vs 4*s. I mean a guy that has a good eye for talent and who can go out and get the players he NEEDS for his offense/defense to succeed...that's INFINITELY more important than signing all 5*s.
We know Smart can recruit this area...no doubt about it. People say that it's because of Bama and Saban but SOS and his staff have won some big recruiting battles for SC even with the retirement ??? hanging over their heads. And I believe that if you couple a TOTAL financial and philosophical support system from The REAL USC with a top notch coach and recruiter like Smart, he sells a LOT of kids on SC...why not? It's not like they won't already be on TV every week...and they may have a shot at being the best player in SC history if they bring a Natty to SC...
I think KS is a legit option. I think his defense will make this team better immediately. His recruiting will give SC a lot more to work with...my only question is his choice in OC...if he assembles an AllStar Offensive Staff to go with an outstanding Defense, he's the favorite...
So for anyone suggesting that Smart wouldn't succeed here, that's about as accurate as saying Herman or Fuente would be guaranteed to succeed. All have some sort of risk or gamble associated with them...for me, it's about what gives us a better chance to win on a consistent basis. A great coach can take a team with decent talent and consistently get to bowl games. A good coach who is a great RECRUITER has a chance to win it ALL every year.
Got to have the talent to get over the National Championship Hump...once you've done that, everything gets a whole lot easier.
Sitting on this thread for a while? Yes, you are correct. But how in the heck do you remember a thread from almost two months ago?
That was an enjoyable read. How bout them SEC champion Dawgs!
Similar threads
