Additional retired jerseys?

[GandBinNC]

It seems as though the athletic department is finally getting serious about honoring more former Gamecock greats, across many sports. Over the last couple of years, Trinity Johnson (Softball), Terrance Trammel (T&F), Miki Barber (T&F), Earl Bass (Baseball) and Clint Mathis (Mens Soccer) have had their jerseys retired.

Who should be next? I'll focus on Men's Basketball for my next three up (current retired jerseys: BJ McKie, John Roche, Alex English, Grady Wallace, Kevin Joyce):

Sindarius Thornwell:

• Finished his career third all-time in scoring (behind BJ McKie and Alex English) with 1,941 points.
• Led the 2016-17 Gamecocks to their first NCAA Tournament win in 43 years, and the program's first-ever Final Four appearance.
• First Team All-SEC and SEC Player of the Year in 2017. First Team All-American 2017 (CBS Sports). No brainer. This one is inevitable.

Devon Downey:

• Finished his career fourth all-time in scoring (now fifth) with 1,901 points in only three seasons (transfer from Cincinnati).
• Honorable Mention All-American and First Team All-SEC in 2009 and 2010.

Jimmy Foster:

• Finished his career third all-time in scoring (now sixth) with 1,745 points.
• Currently ranked #1 in career field goal percentage (.596), #3 in field goals made (678), #5 in rebounds (1,000), #5 in free throws made.
• All four of his seasons rank in the top ten for field goal percentage by season, with his junior season (1982-83) ranking #1 (no other Gamecock has multiple entries).
• One of only two Gamecocks to finish their career with at least 1,000 points and 1,000 rebounds (Alex English was the other).
• All-Metro First Team (1984).

Zam Fredrick (Sr):

• National Scoring Champion, 1980-81.
• All-American honors for the same season

I feel sure Thornwell and Downey will happen. I think Foster is highly deserving from an objective statistical standpoint. His legal troubles are 35 years in the past. Lots of water under the bridge since then. Fredrick, in my opinion, is deserving as well. He is one of two National Scoring Champions in program history. The other, Grady Wallace, is one of five current retired numbers/jerseys, and was the first to be retired in program history.

Both Foster and Fredrick are at somewhat of a disadvantage in that USC was a Major Independent during all of Fredrick's career and most of Foster's (USC was a member of the Metro during Foster's senior season). They would have, no doubt, received all-conference recognition had USC been in a conference during their careers, as evidenced by Foster's All-Metro recognition in his lone season there.

What say you?

 

[ExpatCarolinian]

Thornwell definitely. Downey maybe. The others have been gone for so long already, seems like their numbers would have already been retired closer to their own era. But I may be suffering from recency bias.

If you pressed me for a precise answer, I would say Thornwell only. Better to have fewer retired numbers so it is more special and the numbers are available for recruits.

 

[GandBinNC]

Thornwell definitely. Downey maybe. The others have been gone for so long already, seems like their numbers would have already been retired closer to their own era. But I may be suffering from recency bias.

If you pressed me for a precise answer, I would say Thornwell only. Better to have fewer retired numbers so it is more special and the numbers are available for recruits.

You bring up valid points. I would say that past administrations have been negligent in recognizing Gamecock greats. Say what you will about Tanner, but he is doing a good job of bringing remedy to that.

As far as the numbers being available for recruits, typically "jerseys" are retired now, not numbers. The jersey hangs in the arena, the accomplishments are recognized, but the number is still in circulation.

 

[ExpatCarolinian]

As far as the numbers being available for recruits, typically "jerseys" are retired now, not numbers. The jersey hangs in the arena, the accomplishments are recognized, but the number is still in circulation.

Solid solution.

 

[SpurrierWalkedOnBeer]

Thornwell, McKie, & Owens in basketball.

Clowney was the #1 overall pick. His number should be retired.

 

[FORKCOCK]

Tom Owens

Tom Owens - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Carolina Doc]

Tom Owens

Tom Owens - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Absolutely.

 

[USCWSPfan23]

I would be all for Downey having his number, or more likely like someone already stated, his “jersey” retired. It was always fun & special to watch what he could do on the court.

As far as football this may be unpopular but feel there are many guys that are far more deserving than Clowney.

 

[GandBinNC]

I'll toss a few baseball no-brainers out there... JBJ, Scott Wingo and Michael Roth. Jackie Bradley, Jr was MVP of the 2010 CWS, while Wingo was MVP of the 2011 CWS. Roth is simply the most dominant pitcher in program history. Perhaps Kip Bouknight as well - Golden Spikes award winner (baseball equivalent to Heisman Trophy) in 2000.

As far as football, I believe Marcus Lattimore and Conner Shaw are deserving. One of the criteria the University has set forth is that the designee must be a program record holder. Lattimore holds the rushing TD record, I believe. Shaw holds the all-time QB win record.

 

[uscg1984]

I tend to subscribe to the "less is more" philosophy for retired jerseys. They should be very hard to earn to make the honor that much more special.

For football, I think Shaw and Clowney are deserving, but if I could only pick one, it would be Shaw.

For basketball, Thornwell.

For baseball, Roth, Wingo, and Bradley seem like no-brainers.

 

[king ward]

...As far as the numbers being available for recruits, typically "jerseys" are retired now, not numbers. The jersey hangs in the arena, the accomplishments are recognized, but the number is still in circulation.

That is a latter-day development that has diminished the recognition that number retirement was meant to confer. The "jersey retirement" scheme is meant to pander to recruits, the vast majority of whom will never perform to the level of those whose numbers they are taking out of retirement. I despise the practice.

 

[GandBinNC]

That is a latter-day development that has diminished the recognition that number retirement was meant to confer. The "jersey retirement" scheme is meant to pander to recruits, the vast majority of whom will never perform to the level of those whose numbers they are taking out of retirement.
I despise the practice.

King, your jaundiced view of the world can be almost breathtaking at times. But I appreciate the intensity of your opinions.

I've got a bit of a different take. There are only so many numbers available. You can only retire so many numbers before it begins to be a problem. Have you ever been to Cameron Indoor Stadium? There would literally be nothing available for current players if Duke retired all of those numbers. It is more for that reason, IMO, and less of the jaded "scheme" you noted.

 

[king ward]

King, your jaundiced view of the world can be almost breathtaking at times. But I appreciate the intensity of your opinions.

I've got a bit of a different take. There are only so many numbers available. You can only retire so many numbers before it begins to be a problem. Have you ever been to Cameron Indoor Stadium? There would literally be nothing available for current players if Duke retired all of those numbers. It is more for that reason, IMO, and less of the jaded "scheme" you noted.

Basketball numbers cannot go above 55 because officials have to be able to signal fouls to the scorer's table using only one hand. For that reason, all basketball officials must have five digits on at least one hand. I'll guarantee you that the numbers Duke has retired do not exceed every available number of 55 0r under - and probably don't include all the single digit numbers or those double numbers that begin with "0". So there's no excuse for retiring "jerseys". Everyone's jersey gets retired sooner or later. It's meaningless.

 

[GandBinNC]

So there's no excuse for retiring "jerseys". Everyone's jersey gets retired sooner or later. It's meaningless.

You're certainly entitled to that opinion. So, getting back to the original point of the post, any numbers you would like to see retired?

Good tidbit on why only 55 numbers are available in basketball. That seems like a cruel twist of fate for would be referees with fewer than five fingers.

BTW, Duke has retired 13 jerseys. That would be approximately a quarter of all available numbers, 0-55.

 

[uscg1984]

BTW, Duke has retired 13 jerseys. That would be approximately a quarter of all available numbers, 0-55.

Ah, but are the numbers 01 and 02 the same as 1 and 2? That would open up 10 more numbers for them if they get creative.

And perhaps Duke and the Boston Celtics can go to 3-digit numbers? At least the "short" ones like 111.

 

[king ward]

You're certainly entitled to that opinion. So, getting back to the original point of the post, any numbers you would like to see retired?

Good tidbit on why only 55 numbers are available in basketball. That seems like a cruel twist of fate for would be referees with fewer than five fingers.

BTW, Duke has retired 13 jerseys. That would be approximately a quarter of all available numbers, 0-55.

Well, there could also be 00 - 05. And I was only kidding about the missing fingers. As for recent players having numbers retired, I could see Thornwell, the best player on our most accomplished team. It really ought to be generational type players like he and Roche were. And it should not be because a player was a hotshot. He needs to be somebody who lifted the entire program to unusually lofty status.

 

[GandBinNC]

Well, there could also be 00 - 05. And I was only kidding about the missing fingers. As for recent players having numbers retired, I could see Thornwell, the best player on our most accomplished team. It really ought to be generational type players like he and Roche were. And it should not be because a player was a hotshot. He needs to be somebody who lifted the entire program to unusually lofty status.

I agree with you. Thornwell is certain to happen. The University has set forth criteria for retired jerseys:

A former student-athlete must have attained at least one of these achievements:

• University record holder
• A consensus All-American
• A consensus National Player of the Year
• An Olympic medalist while a student at USC
• An All-SEC 1st or 2nd team for 3 years
• Conference Player of the Year
• Team MVP of National Championship Team
• Post-season MVP, leading to National Championship

The first criteria is the most broad. There are lots of record-holders out there in hundreds fo different statistical categories. Many former players could qualify based upon that criteria alone (i.e. Art Whisnant is the record holder for free throws attempted). No one is clamoring for Whisnant's number/jersey to be retired. However, it is a criteria set forth by the University.

For former Gamecocks of the post-ACC/pre-Metro period (1972-1982), and for football Gamecocks post ACC/pre-SEC (1972-1991), there are several criteria which are unattainable (Conference POTY, All-SEC 1st or 2nd team for 3 years). For those athletes, the "record holder" criteria may be the most viable path. And there are a number of worthy lettermen from those years.

 

[Holy City Cock]

For basketball, Tom Ownes and Sin definetely belong. Downey is a maybe. Baseball, Hank Small, Kip Bouknight, Wingo, Jackie, Roth and Price belong, also Bobby Richardson and June Raines. Football, Connor, Clowney and Marcus.

 

[GandBinNC]

For basketball, Tom Ownes and Sin definetely belong. Downey is a maybe. Baseball, Hank Small, Kip Bouknight, Wingo, Jackie, Roth and Price belong, also Bobby Richardson and June Raines. Football, Connor, Clowney and Marcus.

Agree on all. Great call on Richardson and Raines. Long overdue.

For women's basketball, I'll add the ultimate no-brainer - A'ja Wilson. She'll be automatic after the mandatory five year waiting period.