The coaching vs talent debate

[Judson1]

We definitely need to get better talent. But these are some examples of the problem not being a lack of talent.

if we go an entire game without forcing a punt (LSU last year) that’s coaching. Yes I know that was Muschamp but that’s a recent example of Carolina football and even with a talent gap you’re in the same conference and thats absurd.

If we are outscored 28-0 in the first quarter, to ANYONE, that’s coaching!
I also noticed out of the 5 punts, we returned zero. UT returned 2 of the 5 we punted to them for 34 yards. That’s over three first downs worth of yardage they gained by doing that. I know some punts cannot be returned but I think we have to try with our offense struggling. I went back and looked at previous games and we are not trying to return punts. Actually from the stats we have only returned 7 out of 31 this year. The ECU game we forced 9 punts but did not return any according to the stats. Or at least we had 0 yards which says we didn’t try much. To me that’s a coaching mistake to not try and return punts more often. You’re struggling to move the ball.
So yes we may be short on talent. But this staff doesn’t get a pass. Even inferior talent can be taught to not give the ball up at the 1-yard line twice in as many weeks (int vs UT and the Brown fumble). We have got to help ourselves during the week with coaching. The only way we dig ourselves out is to have the coaching that gets max results and allows them to turn around and sell to recruits the results from the previous year. Beating ourselves. Being penalized more in ALL 6 games than our opponents is unacceptable. 6 straight games??

 

[Harvard Gamecock]

No one is giving the staff a pass, but for reasons I don't understand, most on here aren't willing to accept that there is a serious lack of talent on this team.

 

[DeBoer31]

I lead the charge in the "we don't have enough D1, P5 football talent on this roster" ....especially at certain positions and on the offensive side of the ball.
But....the HC that was hired, and the staff brought in with the exception of two (IMO) - Steppe and Lembo....were not and are not ready for the positions they took. THAT point plus the missing talent pieces of the 85 scholly'd kids has given us the close calls against ECU and Troy...and what we looked like against 2 of the 3 SEC games played this year (in which we are 0-3 in).
This wasn't hard to predict. A tougher prediction is this: does this staff have the ability to turn this around in the next 1-2 years? I think "no"....because none of them have any experience doing it on this type of platform. If they CAN do it...it'll be a first for them in this type situation and a surprise overall.

 

[GarnetBeamer]

I don’t know if our coaches are bad, just inexperienced.

 

[JGH 35]

At the beginning of the year I was in the camp of "he needs time to recruit as there is little talent on this team." While I was not happy with the hire I thought we would have to give him at least 3 years to see where we are headed. But then something strange happened. We actually started playing games for all to see. What I saw in the first three games (which has continued through Saturday) is a coaching staff that is unable to prepare a team for a football game. In every game except EIU(enough said) and Troy(another mid major team), the opponents have taken the ball down the field and scored on their first possession. ECU scored on the first damned play. It's obvious they are not prepared to play a game each Saturday. The offense is confused and players don't know their assignments in a given situation. The number of procedure penalties is outrageous, and they do not play with focus and discipline. We couple that with nonsensical play calling, and this falls purely on the coaching staff, and it starts at the top.

You can have 22 All-Americans starting, but if you cannot prepare a team to play and put together a sensible cohesive game plan, you will not be successful. While we do lack talent, that's not the major problem at present. Adding more talent is not going to fix this. We will just lose with better players.

We need to retool before we can rebuild.

 

[Bubbaglide]

You have to have Jimmys and Joes to run the X's and O's. On the point return point, see our point returner. I don't think his decisions are really good. Fair catch on the 6 with no one in 10 yards of him. Many times there had been running room and we fair caught. Ace Sanders would have been off to the races on some of the points we received

 

[Judson1]

You have to have Jimmys and Joes to run the X's and O's. On the point return point, see our point returner. I don't think his decisions are really good. Fair catch on the 6 with no one in 10 yards of him. Many times there had been running room and we fair caught. Ace Sanders would have been off to the races on some of the points we received

We don’t even have to have an ultra talented PR. Just someone who is smart and will catch it and advance. Lots of schools just use a sure handed guy.
For the returnable punts, not returning them is the same as if we snapped the ball and took a knee. You’re forfeiting yardage.

 

[fowl_mood]

So I'm watching the grandson, he's pretty self contained this minute so I did a a little math. In recruiting classes since 17, I estimate we had 29 4/5 stars; 19 are still around and eight have made big contributions. A handful more have played.

We have coaches who have been around, but not at the top. It's easier to go after those coaches. Lots of teams are competitive with those star totals.

Yet, this crowd did not do much in Champs last year. The addition of this year's class is no help to Beamer yet. So, I guess I will give Beamer the benefit of the doubt, since this crowd of players has failed under two regimes and its too early to call this new coaching staff poor, as is already being done. And, I've seen more poor play than bad calls....that's saying something in this case.

It's not a good situation in any case to have this argument. Someone, coaches or players or both, must step it up.

 

[Dizzy01]

Well since we have an OC that doesn’t believe you can coach QBs and RBs on certain aspects of their game we better start figuring out how to only recruit the top one or two guys at those positions.

 

[Colecock920]

Well since we have an OC that doesn’t believe you can coach QBs and RBs on certain aspects of their game we better start figuring out how to only recruit the top one or two guys at those positions.

What are you referring to?

 

[GarnetBeamer]

When you run the ball down to your opponents 1 yard line and then elect to mix things up with trick play having a DE attempt a pass that's then intercepted...that's coaching, not talent.

 

[Flameout12]

Compare our recruiting with WF, CCU, & SMU.

If the coaching staffs at WF, CCU, or SMU were here, how would USC be performing?

 

[Dizzy01]

What are you referring to?

In his interview following the Troy game he was asked if there were ways to help with the deep ball and any way to coach guys to be more accurate. His response was that deep balls were natural ability and you can either throw it or you can’t and that you can’t coach it. He then went ahead and said it’s just like a RB knowing how to find a hole that they either have the ability or they don’t.

I will never discount natural ability at play in these types of things but if you don’t think you have anything to offer to help someone fine tune what they are doing you aren’t much of a coach.

 

[CockySC01]

It’s never cool to say the players suck, it’s always best to let the coach take all the arrows. Our problem has been recruiting. Having to start a graduate student who recently came here from another college at QB1 isn’t normal. Who else has to do that?

 

[uscwatson21]

No one is giving the staff a pass, but for reasons I don't understand, most on here aren't willing to accept that there is a serious lack of talent on this team.

The worry is can Beamer upgrade that talent?

He took on a bunch of transfers last year and have any of them really contributed?

 

[Colecock920]

In his interview following the Troy game he was asked if there were ways to help with the deep ball and any way to coach guys to be more accurate. His response was that deep balls were natural ability and you can either throw it or you can’t and that you can’t coach it. He then went ahead and said it’s just like a RB knowing how to find a hole that they either have the ability or they don’t.

I will never discount natural ability at play in these types of things but if you don’t think you have anything to offer to help someone fine tune what they are doing you aren’t much of a coach.

Thanks I thought that was it, but didn’t want to assume.
To me, the deep ball is just something that has to be practiced, and a coach really can’t do much to improve it outside of correcting arm mechanics, which really isn’t an issue for Doty. I am not a football coach so this is totally an unqualified opinion…

 

[ToddFlanders]

If USC is going to be good, for more than a three year stretch or so, then coaching will be more important than talent (and by the I just mean recruit rankings). They will need to get the right players and develop them. Get them to buy into a culture. Yes, you have to have some difference makers, and get as much talent as will come, but long term success will not be based on where USC ranks each year in recruiting.

That said, I’m a little disappointed with what I’ve seen so far. Play seems sloppy, there are way too many dumb mistakes and as someone mentioned about penalties, there’s lots of them. It just doesn’t seem like the players, regardless of talent level, have been coached to be the best football players they can be. It takes more than a year, but it doesn’t look like there’s been much progress at all.

 

[_NOVA_]

You don’t have to look too far to see how good coaching, smart game planning, and calculated risks can overcome some talent issues. This defense essentially gave up at times last year. And other than the edge rushers is about as talent deficient as they come on paper. This secondary and linebacker corps were rightfully looked at as among the worst in the SEC and the Power 5 coming into the season.

And yet, other than a couple drives against UGA and UT, they’ve collectively played pretty solid and essentially put the UK game on a silver platter for the offense to win.

You can be talent deficient and still figure out ways to be productive. Even the best schools miss on a position group from time to time, or have injuries, and have to compensate to find a way to be productive. That’s why you hire great football minds and pay them lots of money to figure things out. There is absolutely no excuse for not being able to score more than 20 points a game on offense. None. That UK was an abomination. They started drives at the UK 44, USC 44, UK 40, and UK 47, and scored all of 10 points. Satterfield should have been demoted to QB coach and they should have given someone else a shot to calls plays immediately after that game.

 

[DeBoer31]

Compare our recruiting with WF, CCU, & SMU.

If the coaching staffs at WF, CCU, or SMU were here, how would USC be performing?

great point. Those groups get after it...in particular WF and CCU. I have had the opportunity to hear the WF staff speak a couple different times. They know what they're doing...and there is a reason they do as much and well as they do with as little outside "help" (facilities, budget, recruiting platform, etc).
But, Clawson and Chadwell didn't coach TEs at Georgia so I guess they're not quite ready to be at our program's level just yet.

 

[DeBoer31]

The worry is can Beamer upgrade that talent?

He took on a bunch of transfers last year and have any of them really contributed?

That is the HUGE question. Can he upgrade talent? How will he be able to do so now...after having all of last offseason and couldn't do it? The transfer portal was open and hopping last year too people. We have less of package to offer transfers NOW than we did in Jan-July.
No...by and large the GA that became a player has contributed more than all the transfers thus far.

 

[SOSUSC]

That is the HUGE question. Can he upgrade talent? How will he be able to do so now...after having all of last offseason and couldn't do it? The transfer portal was open and hopping last year too people. We have less of package to offer transfers NOW than we did in Jan-July.
No...by and large the GA that became a player has contributed more than all the transfers thus far.

More galling than that, given our roster, he chose to stay at OU and coach that team. He could have been here recruiting.

 

[Flameout12]

Having to start a graduate student who recently came here from another college at QB1 isn’t normal. Who else has to do that?

Happens a lot.....especially if the team is hit with injuries/transfers. Look at Jake.

 

[Flameout12]

More galling than that, given our roster, he chose to stay at OU and coach that team. He could have been here recruiting.

What difference would it have made? 2 weeks? Wasn't it during the "dead" period.

The only way Shane digs out of this hole is to fire/hire some coaches.

 

[Judson1]

The worse your roster is, the better your coaching has to be.
When you consider 75% of our conference foes recruit better than us we for sure can’t commit more penalties, fall behind every game, drop the ball at the 1 or run some gimmick play when you have a legit chance to score traditionally. You have to make up for the talent gap in every detail. And that’s for sure not happening currently.

 

[GarnetBeamer]

The worse your roster is, the better your coaching has to be.
When you consider 75% of our conference foes recruit better than us we for sure can’t commit more penalties, fall behind every game, drop the ball at the 1 or run some gimmick play when you have a legit chance to score traditionally. You have to make up for the talent gap in every detail. And that’s for sure not happening currently.

Spot on.

 

[Flameout12]

You have to make up for the talent gap in every detail. And that’s for sure not happening currently.

Look no further than the military academies. They traditionally play some of the most disciplined football around, knowing that if they want to win, they're going to win with something besides talent.

Some of those old Bobby Johnson Vandy teams played like that and won some games they shouldn't because of smart football.