Wrong.. We'd be in Shreveport or Memphis because it would be the equivalent of going 5-3 in SEC play but losing to Coastal, Chattanooga, and Clemson and going 6-6.
My questions for the Frank Martin should be gone people
- Thread starter Cbreezy33
- Start date
Wrong.. We'd be in Shreveport or Memphis because it would be the equivalent of going 5-3 in SEC play but losing to Coastal, Chattanooga, and Clemson and going 6-6.
Basically if you look at the graph, there's one giant spike in an otherwise steady sea of boring background noise.
USCBatgirl21
Well-Known Member
It is impressive. All the parts came together in that one season. But until we start making the Dance on the regular, it is nothing more than a fluke, "an unlikely occurrence" in the history of our program. You can't look at it in the scope of just the one season and make your determination off that.
Yes...losing PJ Dozier and Felder unexpectedly had no effect on this. We literally lost our entire final four team minus Chris Silva and Kotsar and you guys just expected a quick rebound? It’s been two years and one of those years we undoubtedly overachieved. My god people.
USCBatgirl21
Well-Known Member
And all the years before when we have done absolutely nothing with regard to the Dance? Our program history didn't start in 2017. Again, fluke. It's really not that difficult to understand.
We had a good season, made the tourney, beat the hell out of everyone we played up until the final 4 game with Gonzaga which we still had a chance to win. Our team was balanced, focused and well coached, this season, last season, has nothing to do with that run.
I still don’t understand your definition of a fluke. Not even a little bit...but using your logic...given how “flukey” Frank Martins final four run was given our history (still don’t understand this logic) what makes you think we can find a coach that can pull off even more “flukes” given how horrible our history is?
USCBatgirl21
Well-Known Member
As previously stated, our history didn't start in 2017. The previous decades prior when we didn't do anything with regard to the Dance, have an impact on it being a fluke. It's not that difficult to understand. Quite simply, we are not expected EVER do such, hence meeting the definition of "unlikely occurrence". Stop looking at it in regard to that one season, but as part of our history as a whole. Then you will see how it is a fluke.
USCBatgirl21
Well-Known Member
My definition of "fluke" is the dictionary definition.
And I don't think we can. Our history plays a great deal more into the fact that we can't land the Zions and Coach Ks of the world much moreso than 1 great season where it all came together magically. Before 2017 the closest we came to greatness (SEC Champions, 1st round loss) was 20 years prior. And before that it was 20+ years prior.
A fluke is when George Mason makes the final four with a roster of lightly recruited players who didn't go on to any NBA success.
South Carolina reaching the final four, lead by Thornwell (top 50 recruit), Dozier (top 25 recruit) and Silva (top 150 recruit) is not a fluke. It's good players who are playing well during tournament time. It's what Frank Martin is paid to acquire and produce.
South Carolina reaching the final four, lead by Thornwell (top 50 recruit), Dozier (top 25 recruit) and Silva (top 150 recruit) is not a fluke. It's good players who are playing well during tournament time. It's what Frank Martin is paid to acquire and produce.
USCBatgirl21
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with Cbreezy and I understand what you're saying Batgirl, but a fluke is no way to describe what our coaching staff put together.
Even coach K made no excuses after we whipped them. We were the better team. We blew teams out in that tournament. That's coaching.
The Fluke that tournament was Sindarius getting sick and Gonzaga lucking in a brick 3 to beat us.
We came close to winning it all. A lot closer than some of you might realize, and a lot of you are ready to get rid of this guy after some unfortunate attrition.
Until he leaves or is asked to leave, all we're doing is hurting the program with all this talk.
Even coach K made no excuses after we whipped them. We were the better team. We blew teams out in that tournament. That's coaching.
The Fluke that tournament was Sindarius getting sick and Gonzaga lucking in a brick 3 to beat us.
We came close to winning it all. A lot closer than some of you might realize, and a lot of you are ready to get rid of this guy after some unfortunate attrition.
Until he leaves or is asked to leave, all we're doing is hurting the program with all this talk.
I understand what she is saying, both from the season perspective and from the overall history of the program.
We played crazy out of our minds in those 4 games. WAAAAAAY better than we had played at any point during the regular season. We just got freaking hot at exactly the right time. Were we a better team than Duke? Of course not. But we were better that night.
But that's the beauty of the tournament. We were in the FF but we obviously weren't one of the 4 best teams in the nation.
You're talking out of both sides of your mouth here.
Yes, people seem to forget Thornwell was in the conversation for National Player of the Year and was the best player in the SEC that season. Plus, while inconsistent, Dozier and Silva were both very talented. South Carolina entered the tournament with arguably one of the five best players in the country and a quality supporting cast-- the results were not surprising.
By that same token, Frank has done almost nothing since landing PJ Dozier and Chris Silva in 2015. You need talent to win. Frank can blame the fans all he wants, but it's him not closing the deal with all this regional talent that killing both enthusiasm for the program and results on the court. And we should know now, because we've seen it, you need top 50 recruits to ensure you make the tournament.
We were less talented than Duke I would agree, but we had gelled at that time. They had no answer for our defense which was as good as anybody's in the country. That team would beat Duke, more than five out ten times in my opinion.
I'm not sure why anyone would try to disparage just how good we were. The offense was a bit inconsistent, but the defense was always there. That's how we kept it close in the first half against Duke when weren't hitting shots or else we might have blown them out.
A testimony to the point you are making is this year's team 2 years removed from the final four was a rejected NIT bubble team! Good lawd that's awful. This is Frank's seventh season!
Wrong. I watched every Duke and South Carolina game that year and I actually thought we were the better team. Duke had more talent sure, but we were far more disciplined and superior on defense. Duke was a poor defensive team with a lot of finesse offensive players which matched up horribly with us. Sindarius was able to lock up Tatum and Silva was able to take advantage of Dukes lack of a true center. Duke hadn’t matched up with a team as physical as us and it showed in the tournament. Kennard, Tatum and Allen had no idea what to do after they were punched in the mouth and Silva dominated Amile and Giles. We were without a doubt the better team with more experience.
I never said better players, I alluded to the fact they were more highly rated. Frank obviously sees potential and can develop it. That is better than more highly rated players who refuse to work hard and therefore never perform to expectations. Frank finds those more times than not who are willing to work. Most ofthe more highly rated kids want it handed to them and dont want to wokr. Thats why Frank doesnt get them. they know if they come here they will have to work.
Hate on frank all you want but he has done good and I guarentee you if we were another school with more history, we would have made at least 2 other NCAA tournaments as well as another NIT or 2. You can disagree with that but its true. Name recognition gets the nod over anything else. How else did Syracuse make it a couple of times when they clearly didnt deserve it for example.
My friend, although your comments, concerning our BB history, are correct, we are paying the coach just under $3MM per year to change all that. That is his job. Our history plays only a small part in the current state of affairs. CFM's record is virtually identical to Dave Odom's which most found to be unacceptable. We haven't been going to the Dance. We haven't been going to the NIT.
We all have hopes for the future. The current path doesn't appear to be, where we want to be.
Us making the Tournament was a Fluke. Every team we beat in that 4 game stretch. Is preparing for the first Round of the Tournament. While we're living in the past talking about winning games in the tournament 2 seasons ago.
There is absolutely no truth to any of that. Frank's best players have always been rated and widely recruited. He's not some kind of savant talent evaluator.
Isn't it Martin's job to recruit and prepare for departures? I mean given his history, even going back to KState, he should have prepared for kids leaving...
AJ Lawson was a three star and clearly underrated coming out of high school...Keyshawn Bryant was the 66th ranked SF and looks to be a keeper. But going by your logic...what is your point? Coach K’s best players have always been highly rated and widely recruited...it’s not exactly like he’s been developing under the radar 3 stars these last two decades. If anything Coach K’s lesser recruited prospects underachieve and transfer. It is easier to coach better talent...what is your point? Do you think Frank Martin hasn’t gotten enough out of his players? I couldn’t disagree with you more if you feel that way.
Power schools with a plethora of talent can afford this...schools like South Carolina can not afford to lose four of their five starters and their 6th man. It’s completly unreasonable to expect that..especially when two of the departures were 100 pct unexpected.
Actually, no. 1st in the SEC is in the playoffs. 4th place would get us no less than the Outback.
Let's see wasn't Felder suspended during the Fain Four season as well? May want to have a back up plan. Dozier, IIRC was always a possibility of leaving early. It's college basketball, teams turn a roster quickly, its called good recruiting and player evaluations, keeping players in school.
Good grief! I think some in here are being dense for the sake of being dense!!
@USCBatgirl21 gave the dictionary definition of "fluke". Let's see if this image can help.
Consider each bar in this graph as a season. All are relatively low on the achievement scale. Then there's this ONE - there's ONE SEASON that went very high on the achievement scale. That one sticks out compared to all the rest. It's an outlier. It's a fluke! Gamecock basketball has not reached anywhere near the FF achievement under CFM.
And for the record, I'm somewhat Switzerland here. I'm not screaming for him to go, but there are definitely some things that *I* think he needs to improve upon for us to have a successful BBall program under his leadership....and I really, really hope that happens..
@USCBatgirl21 gave the dictionary definition of "fluke". Let's see if this image can help.
Consider each bar in this graph as a season. All are relatively low on the achievement scale. Then there's this ONE - there's ONE SEASON that went very high on the achievement scale. That one sticks out compared to all the rest. It's an outlier. It's a fluke! Gamecock basketball has not reached anywhere near the FF achievement under CFM.
And for the record, I'm somewhat Switzerland here. I'm not screaming for him to go, but there are definitely some things that *I* think he needs to improve upon for us to have a successful BBall program under his leadership....and I really, really hope that happens..
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Oh...you guys know how Felder can sometimes act up? Let’s recruit a point guard and assume he gets suspended next season. Oh and you know Dozier...whose never been on any NBA scouts radar or any mock draft that I’ve seen all season? Let’s recruit a SF just in case he declares for the draft even though he comes from an affluent family and has no chance of being drafted. It’s so easy when we have hindsight isn’t it?
I guess you could also say it's a "fluke" when nearly half your team is out with injuries. Doesn't that qualify as an unlikely chance occurrence with a surprising piece of luck.
I mean seriously, we were down to two guards and 7 scholarship players at one time. Any chance the injuries affected our post season chances?
I mean seriously, we were down to two guards and 7 scholarship players at one time. Any chance the injuries affected our post season chances?
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I think we just peaked at the right time and the team as a whole played its best basketball during the tournament but we were a very good team earlier in the season. At one point we were 19-4 and ranked 19th in the country but we struggled down the stretch finishing 3-5. There was talk that our players looked tired and Frank's style of play was too physically demanding. Scoring had taken a major dip. The best thing that happened to that team was losing its first game in the SEC tournament. When the NCAA tournament started we were well rested and re-energized. That was the spark that set us on our way to the best run in the history of our basketball program.
The excuses you make for Martin are laughable.
Look at any program who has sustained success over the last 5 years, they recruit and have players in the wings ready to step up incase players are suspended, multiple times, or go pro earlier than some suspect.
BTW a suspension is a lot more serious than a player "who acts up".
Want a example of those kids of issues you brought up? Look at Xavier, they lost 5 guys, one unexpected, and still went 18-15, third in the Big East and just missed the NCAAs, made the NIT.
Look at NC State last year, lost a bunch of players from 16-17 team and went to the NCAAs in 17-18.
What about the past three years of recruiting? Where are the top-50 players? Top-100? We've had a few in-state players that meet that definition....where are they?
I really don't know what you're trying to get at. Frank Martin hasn't gotten enough good players to play for him at South Carolina, especially post 2015 recruiting cycle. Accordingly, his teams aren't performing well. The lone exception was the final four run, in which he had 3 very talented players based on good recruiting cycles in 2013 and 2015. If Frank Martin was able to get more quality players or his ability to find and developed undervalued talent was truly elite, his teams would perform better. I don't know how any of that is debatable. The results, or lack thereof, speak for themselves.
More important question - where did you find that weird Olan Mills Portrait of Muschamp and his wife? And why are you using it?
This is a hypothetical argument that is comparing football and basketball, so really not worth wasting time on, but gotta question what you're getting at...
My point is that we finished 4th in the SEC, but our horrible non-conference performance kept us out of the tournament.
An 11-7 SEC record in basketball roughly translates to a 5-3 record in football . If you did that in league play but lost to terrible non-conference teams and went 6-6, you ain't making the Outback Bowl.
Additionally, if you went 6-2 or 7-1 in league play, somehow won your division, but had 2 awful non-conference losses, you wouldn't make playoff even if you won the SEC Championship game.
Good grief! I think some in here are being dense for the sake of being dense!!
@USCBatgirl21 gave the dictionary definition of "fluke". Let's see if this image can help.
Consider each bar in this graph as a season. All are relatively low on the achievement scale. Then there's this ONE - there's ONE SEASON that went very high on the achievement scale. That one sticks out compared to all the rest. It's an outlier. It's a fluke! Gamecock basketball has not reached anywhere near the FF achievement under CFM.
And for the record, I'm somewhat Sweden here. I'm not screaming for him to go, but there are definitely some things that *I* think he needs to improve upon for us to have a successful BBall program under his leadership....and I really, really hope that happens..
You're looking at this the wrong way. That the 2017 team made up of Thornwell, Dozier and Silva made a deep run through a single elimination tournament was not a fluke. Talented teams, with national level recruits, make runs through the NCAA tournament all the time. That South Carolina had those players in the first place would be your fluke.
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