Vanderbilt baseball scholarship issue
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I do know other schools do that same thing because my daughter was offered a half scholarship athletically for golf at one school and then had several other academic ones she earned on her own. The coach then said they would help find others (scholarships) within the school to cover any final costs so that it is just like a full ride. In the end my daughter turned it down but many schools look for any way to do the same things. vandy just has more money to do it with.
I don't believe that Vanderbilt "gives" an athlete an academic scholarship, just like that, if they aren't a scholar worthy of it. What they do have in place is an opportunity to attend at a reduced cost that is income based, as long as they qualify academically for admission. This is still a huge advantage because they can save those 11.7 athletic scholarships.
Is the Whistler on scholarship?
This. It isn’t merit based academic scholarships they’re giving out.
Vanderbilt has income based scholarships and the income limits are so high almost everyone qualifies for free tuition.
Good for them. I am happy to see a superior academic school succeeding. They can offer the same financial assistance in other sports. How's that working out for them?
Tradition is why they get top athletes in their baseball program. Rocker and Leiter (spelling) would have no problem paying tuition at any school. Their daddy's have $$. They chose Vandy because of tradition.
You’re ignoring that Vandy wouldn’t have any tradition without the unfair advantage.
Teams in Power 5 conferences get 11.7 scholarships to distribute among 27 scholarship players on a 35-man roster, with the other eight able to receive financial aid from the school but not the athletic department. It used to be a player could only recieve one or the other, not both. That changed this year and they can recieve both athletic money and school aid. These changes happened in part to combat Vandy's advantage. It has narrowed the gap somewhat.
Imo tho, baseball should get aprox. 5 additional athletic scholarships to be in line with softball. Makes no sense to give the same number of scholarships to teams that are vastly different in size. I'm not a title IX opponent, I just believe it's not implemented correctly.
Imo tho, baseball should get aprox. 5 additional athletic scholarships to be in line with softball. Makes no sense to give the same number of scholarships to teams that are vastly different in size. I'm not a title IX opponent, I just believe it's not implemented correctly.
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USCBatgirl21
Well-Known Member
Not to mention the minimum amount that has to be given is 25%. Back in my day, you were considered "on scholarship" if you were given book money out of the 11.7. It's harder to spread around these days.
I agree. And as for their perceived advantages, what are they doing that Duke, Stanford, or Notre Dame don't do or could not do? Vanderbilt is just doing it better. In fact, where is it written that state schools couldn't apportion scholarships differently?
USCBatgirl21
Well-Known Member
The difference is that Vandy has an endowment that allows them to set the standards, if memory serves. And they have done so to suit their baseball needs. If we had such an endowment we could do the same. However we do not.
As for other academic scholarships, many of them have their own set standards that have to be met, and are not as easily adjusted to suit the needs because they are not University specific. They are given by private foundations/individuals for a specific course of study.
Of course, in state kids do have access to the lottery scholarships, but those don't help the out of state kids.
Are you honestly arguing sports should just be determined by whomever is richer?
... to expand on my previous post, the NCAA has already made adjustments to scholarship allocations after Vandy's rise to prominence and it's possible they may do it again. So one could argue their rise may very well be good for baseball in the long run. Lol
USCBatgirl21
Well-Known Member
I'll believe it when they actually increase baseball from 11.7. Until then... 🙄
I honestly dont think they are done looking at it. Now whether or not they act is a different story. But if changes dont happen after this year it will be a long time coming.
They are playing by the rules and kicking ass. There's some logic for ya.
Your whining that things are unfair is the consistency.
As I pointed out, at least with respect to the other private schools, there are ways to compete. Either they choose not to, or they aren't as enlightened in the scholarship aspect. Hats off to Vanderbilt. They have found a way to compete at something.
I'm arguing just the opposite. I think the issue here is flexibility and creativity more than sheer bankroll. Besides, Vanderbilt doesn't print money as far as I know. And they aren't even that big as far as private universities go. It's about structure and vision.
I always thought they got by with some Title IX stuff by combining the Athletic Dept with intramurals. I don’t claim to be smart enough to know this…but it seems like this is when Vandy started to change…especially on the baseball field. Wasn’t long after this they landed guys like David Price.
Vanderbilt announces athletics program restructuring 9-9-03
Saying that intercollegiate athletics must be totally integrated into the academic and student life of the University in order to survive, Chancellor Gordon Gee today announced a major restructuring of the Vanderbilt athletics program.
Under the new organization, Vanderbilt will bring together intercollegiate sports and recreational activities for students in a single department that will be part of the Division of Student Life and University Affairs. In addition, the University will take a leadership role in the national reform agenda for college sports.
“For too long, college athletics has been segregated from the core mission of the University. As a result, we have created a culture, both on this campus and nationally, that is disconnected from our students, faculty and other constituents, where responsibility is diffuse, the potential for abuse considerable and the costs — both financial and academic — unsustainable,” said Gee. “Nothing short of a revolution will stop what has become a crisis of conscience and integrity for colleges and universities in this country. Let there be no misunderstanding of our intention: Vanderbilt is committed to competing at the highest levels in the Southeastern Conference and the NCAA, but we intend on competing consistent with the values of a world-class university.”
Gee has asked David Williams II, vice chancellor for student life and university affairs, himself one of the most respected executives in college athletics, to lead the development of this new structure. Before joining Vanderbilt in 2000, Williams served as vice president for student life and community affairs at Ohio State University, where the nation’s largest intercollegiate athletic program reported to him.
In the most significant change, Vanderbilt will combine the programs and operations of its varsity sports with those of student recreation, intramurals and community sports programs into the new Office of Student Athletics, Recreation and Wellness. Assistant Vice Chancellor Brock Williams, a longtime Vanderbilt administrator, will directly oversee the day-to-day internal operations of the new office, which is now responsible for 14 varsity sports, more than 300 varsity student athletes, 37 club sports with more than 1,000 participants and an active student intramural program.
Other changes will affect the operational and support elements for Vanderbilt athletics:
– Management of all sports facilities, including Vanderbilt Stadium, Memorial Gymnasium, Charles Hawkins Field, the Currey Tennis Center, as well as the Student Recreation Center and playing fields, will be consolidated in a new Office of Facilities and Conferences initially under the leadership of Associate Vice Chancellor for Student Life Steve Caldwell. This will allow Vanderbilt to accommodate student activities as well as additional community programs and conference services.
– The University’s award-winning Division of Public Affairs, led by Vice Chancellor Michael Schoenfeld, will assume responsibility for athletics media relations, marketing, broadcasting, publications and websites, working in close coordination with the Office of Student Athletics, Recreation and Wellness.
– The National Commodore Club will continue to serve fans and donors under the aegis of Robert Early, executive associate vice chancellor for development and alumni relations, along with the Major Gifts Office and annual fundraising campaigns.
– Financial and administrative operations, including the ticket office, will be combined with the Division of Student Life and University Affairs under the leadership of Patricia Marett, associate vice chancellor and chief of staff for the Division of Student Life and University Affairs.
– Lucius T. Outlaw, associate provost and professor of philosophy and African American studies, will assess and assist in making any necessary changes to better coordinate the academic support activity with academic advising provided by the faculty.
“This is about students and coaches,” said Gee. “We have assembled perhaps the best cadre of coaches in this country. They are dedicated to team success and individual growth, and we will provide them an environment in which they can thrive as members of a vibrant and enthusiastic university community in which they are valued as teachers and mentors.”
Todd Turner, who has served as director of athletics since 1996, has been asked to serve as special assistant to the Chancellor for athletic/academic reform. In this expanded role, Turner would focus on advancing a national agenda for the reform of intercollegiate athletics. Turner currently serves as chairman of the NCAA’s Incentives and Disincentives Committee, which has developed proposals for sweeping changes designed to improve the academic performance of athletes.
“Vanderbilt cannot be a passive observer of athletic reform on the national scene — we simply must be an active participant,” said Gee. “And the only way we can do that is to have a full-time, constant presence at the highest levels. Todd is a forceful and respected advocate for the highest ideals of college sports.”
Under Turner’s leadership, Vanderbilt completed its most expansive capital construction project in its history, building or renovating state-of-the-art facilities for football, baseball, soccer, lacrosse and golf while achieving significant success in a number of sports. The University was also recognized for its consistently high academic achievement and graduation rates of student athletes.
Gee said he hoped the new Vanderbilt structure could be a model for other universities seeking respite from the increasing disenfranchisement of big-time athletics programs from the university, but he is under no illusion that systemic changes will be quick or easy.
“There are many who say that the entrenched interests — television, alumni, legislators, among others — will never truly accept anything less than a continuation of the status quo,” said Gee. “But that is simply unacceptable — as educators, we have an obligation to try to make things better. I love college sports. However, institutions of higher learning are in danger of being torn apart by the win-at-all-costs culture we have created for ourselves.”
Added Gee: “I am confident that Vanderbilt will compete at the highest levels. We will make Vanderbilt athletics fun and something that every student, faculty member, alumnus and sidewalk fan can be proud of, and participate in. And we will thrive with an athletic program that puts the goals of the University first.”
Vanderbilt announces athletics program restructuring 9-9-03
Saying that intercollegiate athletics must be totally integrated into the academic and student life of the University in order to survive, Chancellor Gordon Gee today announced a major restructuring of the Vanderbilt athletics program.
Under the new organization, Vanderbilt will bring together intercollegiate sports and recreational activities for students in a single department that will be part of the Division of Student Life and University Affairs. In addition, the University will take a leadership role in the national reform agenda for college sports.
“For too long, college athletics has been segregated from the core mission of the University. As a result, we have created a culture, both on this campus and nationally, that is disconnected from our students, faculty and other constituents, where responsibility is diffuse, the potential for abuse considerable and the costs — both financial and academic — unsustainable,” said Gee. “Nothing short of a revolution will stop what has become a crisis of conscience and integrity for colleges and universities in this country. Let there be no misunderstanding of our intention: Vanderbilt is committed to competing at the highest levels in the Southeastern Conference and the NCAA, but we intend on competing consistent with the values of a world-class university.”
Gee has asked David Williams II, vice chancellor for student life and university affairs, himself one of the most respected executives in college athletics, to lead the development of this new structure. Before joining Vanderbilt in 2000, Williams served as vice president for student life and community affairs at Ohio State University, where the nation’s largest intercollegiate athletic program reported to him.
In the most significant change, Vanderbilt will combine the programs and operations of its varsity sports with those of student recreation, intramurals and community sports programs into the new Office of Student Athletics, Recreation and Wellness. Assistant Vice Chancellor Brock Williams, a longtime Vanderbilt administrator, will directly oversee the day-to-day internal operations of the new office, which is now responsible for 14 varsity sports, more than 300 varsity student athletes, 37 club sports with more than 1,000 participants and an active student intramural program.
Other changes will affect the operational and support elements for Vanderbilt athletics:
– Management of all sports facilities, including Vanderbilt Stadium, Memorial Gymnasium, Charles Hawkins Field, the Currey Tennis Center, as well as the Student Recreation Center and playing fields, will be consolidated in a new Office of Facilities and Conferences initially under the leadership of Associate Vice Chancellor for Student Life Steve Caldwell. This will allow Vanderbilt to accommodate student activities as well as additional community programs and conference services.
– The University’s award-winning Division of Public Affairs, led by Vice Chancellor Michael Schoenfeld, will assume responsibility for athletics media relations, marketing, broadcasting, publications and websites, working in close coordination with the Office of Student Athletics, Recreation and Wellness.
– The National Commodore Club will continue to serve fans and donors under the aegis of Robert Early, executive associate vice chancellor for development and alumni relations, along with the Major Gifts Office and annual fundraising campaigns.
– Financial and administrative operations, including the ticket office, will be combined with the Division of Student Life and University Affairs under the leadership of Patricia Marett, associate vice chancellor and chief of staff for the Division of Student Life and University Affairs.
– Lucius T. Outlaw, associate provost and professor of philosophy and African American studies, will assess and assist in making any necessary changes to better coordinate the academic support activity with academic advising provided by the faculty.
“This is about students and coaches,” said Gee. “We have assembled perhaps the best cadre of coaches in this country. They are dedicated to team success and individual growth, and we will provide them an environment in which they can thrive as members of a vibrant and enthusiastic university community in which they are valued as teachers and mentors.”
Todd Turner, who has served as director of athletics since 1996, has been asked to serve as special assistant to the Chancellor for athletic/academic reform. In this expanded role, Turner would focus on advancing a national agenda for the reform of intercollegiate athletics. Turner currently serves as chairman of the NCAA’s Incentives and Disincentives Committee, which has developed proposals for sweeping changes designed to improve the academic performance of athletes.
“Vanderbilt cannot be a passive observer of athletic reform on the national scene — we simply must be an active participant,” said Gee. “And the only way we can do that is to have a full-time, constant presence at the highest levels. Todd is a forceful and respected advocate for the highest ideals of college sports.”
Under Turner’s leadership, Vanderbilt completed its most expansive capital construction project in its history, building or renovating state-of-the-art facilities for football, baseball, soccer, lacrosse and golf while achieving significant success in a number of sports. The University was also recognized for its consistently high academic achievement and graduation rates of student athletes.
Gee said he hoped the new Vanderbilt structure could be a model for other universities seeking respite from the increasing disenfranchisement of big-time athletics programs from the university, but he is under no illusion that systemic changes will be quick or easy.
“There are many who say that the entrenched interests — television, alumni, legislators, among others — will never truly accept anything less than a continuation of the status quo,” said Gee. “But that is simply unacceptable — as educators, we have an obligation to try to make things better. I love college sports. However, institutions of higher learning are in danger of being torn apart by the win-at-all-costs culture we have created for ourselves.”
Added Gee: “I am confident that Vanderbilt will compete at the highest levels. We will make Vanderbilt athletics fun and something that every student, faculty member, alumnus and sidewalk fan can be proud of, and participate in. And we will thrive with an athletic program that puts the goals of the University first.”
You’re kidding right?
Vanderbilt’s endowment is $7 billion. The rest of the SEC East is a combined $8.3 billion.
So, they ought to be National Championship contenders in everything, then, shouldn't they?
No. That’s not how it works. In football and basketball it doesn’t give them any competitive advantage. It’s only in baseball of the three major sports.
Well, if they could legally increase the number of scholarship athletes who can contribute, why wouldn't it be an advantage? But let's get specific. How much are they actually paying for this baseball advantage? Don't say it can't be done if you don't know the actual cost?
The roster sizes are so much larger in football that doesn’t really matter if Vanderbilt can offer the 86th player on their roster a full scholarship.
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
USCBatgirl21
Well-Known Member
@king ward I get what you're saying. The thing is that they don't have to use it for football and basketball because they are not unfairly penalized with regard to scholarship limits by the NCAA like baseball is.
They use it primarily for baseball because that is where the greatest disparity in scholarship numbers lies.
Schools are in a huge scholarship crunch in football because of the extra year granted. This is a big time advantage to Vandy, right?
No because the NCAA is allowing every school to offer additional scholarships over the limit for those players.
USCBatgirl21
Well-Known Member
If we can find a way to pay a guy $13 million not to coach, we ought to be able to fund a few scholarships for smart baseball players
That isn’t how this works.
Vanderbilt has to offer this scholarship to all 12,000 of its undergraduate students. That gets expensive very quickly.
We would have to offer the scholarship to all 27,000 undergraduate students we have with 11% of the endowment they possess.
USCBatgirl21
Well-Known Member
Doesn't answer why they couldn't buy a competitive advantage in every sport they field.
USCBatgirl21
Well-Known Member
Someone would have to give USC the money in an endowment, and specify that it is just for athletics, or baseball alone. Until that happens, there isn't much we can do. If we were to start doing so, we open ourselves up to scrutiny and possible violations of Title IX resulting in discrimination lawsuits.
(If I had the money, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. It would be done. Every baseball player would be on scholarship. And the ballpark would go back to being named Carolina Stadium.)
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